Tourney Rebuy Question (1 Viewer)

[krafticus]

Heard this question during @MikesDad tournament this weekend, and we weren't sure the answer.

Our tournaments are virtually the same .. 10k starting stacks, 25/50 blinds, and a bounty, so I will piggy back on this question. In the tournaments, each player is allowed 1 rebuy prior to the 1st break. Normally, one must be felted in order to rebuy. In that case, the situation is simple. rebuy, new stack, new bounty.

For this months game, he offered a rebuy if you were below starting stack. In this case, you would forfeit your remaining chips and receive a new stack. The question is, what do you do with the bounty?

would you keep the bounty, and only rebuy for the stack (say, $35 instead of $40)?
would you forfeit your bounty?
would you buy another bounty, and have 2 on your head?

What would you do in this situation?

Mark

 

[upNdown]

I like option C. It seems to make the most sense to me - 2 bounties!

 

[bentax1978]

I'd do with the first option. Keep your original bounty and just pay for the new stack (with the additional cost of a new bounty).

 

[longflop]

This probably doesn't help, but my tourney has bounties for the guys who cashed the previous month. The bounties come out of the total pot. Once they bust, the bounty is paid and they can rebuy as long as its before the end of the rebuy period. They are not given another bounty chip when re buying.

 

[Trihonda]

I'd do with the first option. Keep your original bounty and just pay for the new stack (with the additional cost of a new bounty).

The problem with allowing reloads without fully busting, is that Bounty is in play, and people play at you differently based on remaining chips and the potential to get your bounty. If you get low, and can protect that bounty by reloading I think this opens up a can of worms. Dislike.

You’re in, playing for bounties, until you bust and rebuy with a new stack and bounty. Just my thought

 

[CraigT78]

In my game if you rebuy for a full stack, you keep your bounty. It's $40 instead of $50. I usually get 1 taker per game, most just shove before the break and hope to double up or go bust.

 

[upNdown]

The problem with allowing reloads without fully busting, is that Bounty is in play, and people play at you differently based on remaining chips and the potential to get your bounty. If you get low, and can protect that bounty by reloading I think this opens up a can of worms. Dislike.

That was my thinking, which is why I liked the third option. You kinda get to protect your bounty by rebuying, but to pay for that protection, you have to put a second bounty at risk. Seems like a fair price to pay.

 

[bentax1978]

The problem with allowing reloads without fully busting, is that Bounty is in play, and people play at you differently based on remaining chips and the potential to get your bounty. If you get low, and can protect that bounty by reloading I think this opens up a can of worms. Dislike.

You’re in, playing for bounties, until you bust and rebuy with a new stack and bounty. Just my thought

I agree with you regarding the bounty and how allowing rebuys before losing the bounty chip could affect play.

However, my suggestion was in the context of the OP allowing rebuys before you lose your bounty, and addressed how he should deal with the remaining/extra bounty chip.

 

[justsomedude]

Option D...

Don’t allow chip surrender when you have bounties. At least that’s how I do it, because your bounty is inherently tied to your stack. If you surrender all your chips, how can you still possess a bounty chip?

In my opinion, bounty tournaments and chip-surrender tournaments are two completely different game types that shouldn’t intermingle.

So...

Bounty = no chip surrender allowed for rebuy; you must bust out
No bounty = chip surrender all you want and rebuy

Just my $.02.

 

[Richard Cranium]

In the games I play in the rebuy has generally been kept separate from buyin, and is optional. Say $20 buy in, bounty optional for additional $5. So first off, if you didn’t buy in, you can’t win any bounties. You bust someone that did buy in to bounty, they get their $5 refunded.

If you are both in bounty, and bust the player during rebuy period, if they rebuy they keep their bounty. We have one or two guys that usually don’t play the bounty. They’re the oddballs but it helps keep everyone happy those that do and do not like bounties. You could say it changes the game a bit but for this casual group it works.

Very rarely do players not rebuy during the first hour when felted. So basically the rebuys don’t come into effect until after the first hour of play.

So I would offer additional option: if doing chip surrender you could do bounties are only won when player doesn’t rebuy. Buy in for $40 instead of $35+5. Make bounty $5 on top of $40.

 

[Boother36]

Since the player didn't really get "knocked out", I say Option 1 get's my vote!

 

[Blaster]

We don't usually do bounty chips as part of the re-buy ... So a player that re-buys ( can be either surrender stack or bust out), doesn't get a 2nd bounty chip...
It is just initially decided before the tournament if the bounty is won on the "1st bustout, or the last bustout" ( we usually do last, so the re-buy player keeps his bounty chip at his seat) ....

 

[Jambine]

What would you do in this situation?

Mark

If the buy in includes a specific dollar amount for the bounty, You must issue another bounty chip. Yes, you might have someone with two

 

[Jambine]

In my game if you rebuy for a full stack, you keep your bounty. It's $40 instead of $50. I usually get 1 taker per game, most just shove before the break and hope to double up or go bust.

Or, you can do ^that^

 

[ruskba]

We don't usually do bounty chips as part of the re-buy ... So a player that re-buys ( can be either surrender stack or bust out), doesn't get a 2nd bounty chip...
It is just initially decided before the tournament if the bounty is won on the "1st bustout, or the last bustout" ( we usually do last, so the re-buy player keeps his bounty chip at his seat) ....

Oof. So you could bust out a bunch of people but because it wasn’t their “last” bust out you get no bounties? That’s brutal.

 

[justsomedude]

Oof. So you could bust out a bunch of people but because it wasn’t their “last” bust out you get no bounties? That’s brutal.

If you bust some one out they get your bounty.

But say you bet into a hand, chase a couple streets, and then fold with 300 behind (after sitting with 10,000). You could theoretically surrender those 300 and rebuy without ever sacrificing your bounty.

This scenario is precisely why I don’t like mixing bounties with chip-surrender play.

 

[ruskba]

If you bust some one out they get your bounty.

But say you bet into a hand, chase a couple streets, and then fold with 300 behind (after sitting with 10,000). You could theoretically surrender those 300 and rebuy without ever sacrificing your bounty.

This scenario is precisely why I don’t like mixing bounties with chip-surrender play.

I was talking about Blaster’s scenario. Sounds like in that game, it’s a bounty tournament with rebuys, but you only have one bounty and the last person to bust you gets it. So if you rebuy twice, the first two that bust you get nothing.

Regarding the OP, I agree with you. Mixing chip surrender and bounty is counterintuitive to me.

 

[Blaster]

Oof. So you could bust out a bunch of people but because it wasn’t their “last” bust out you get no bounties? That’s brutal.

Since we do 1 initial bounty, & rebuy is then $5 less than buy in, the players seem to prefer "last bustout" , although I'll occasionally make it 1st bustout ... I'll admit though the rebuy is strictly there so nobody has to drive an hour & go home 24 mins into the tourn .. The Blind levels & starting stacks we do usually result in (usually) no rebuys most games, & occasionally 1 or 2 , before the end of the RB period... & it's usually 1 table, so we've never had someone bust out " a bunch of people" before the 1st break ... Of course, other structures and # of tables could run into that, & I'd probably only do 1st bustout in such situations ... Also, surrender chips for rebuy is less relevant if it's last bustout....

 

[BGinGA]

In the tournaments, each player is allowed 1 rebuy prior to the 1st break. Normally, one must be felted in order to rebuy. In that case, the situation is simple. rebuy, new stack, new bounty.

For this months game, he offered a rebuy if you were below starting stack. In this case, you would forfeit your remaining chips and receive a new stack. The question is, what do you do with the bounty?

would you keep the bounty, and only rebuy for the stack (say, $35 instead of $40)?
would you forfeit your bounty?
would you buy another bounty, and have 2 on your head?

What would you do in this situation?

Simple..... I would not run a bounty tournament with a surrender-stack option. The only good way to deal with the issue of bounties in that scenario is to not do it.

 

[bentax1978]

Simple..... I would not run a bounty tournament with a surrender-stack option. The only good way to deal with the issue of bounties in that scenario is to not do it.

 

[WedgeRock]

Surrender stack is really the same as shoving blind at the end of the rebuy period... I think that's why people do to surrender option, to avoid people pushing with air.

 

[timinater]

I agree with most here that wouldn't run a stack surrender rebuy with a bounty.

That said, if you wanted to I like the player having a second bounty on their stack. If you want to surrender your stack, you can pay for the privilege (and compensate other players who don't get an opportunity to claim the original bounty) with another bounty available for players to claim. Easy math too.

Surrender stack is really the same as shoving blind at the end of the rebuy period... I think that's why people do to surrender option, to avoid people pushing with air.

I love those last hand before the break shoves - so fun!

I actually have a rule/superstition about tightening my hand range way up on the last hand before a break in bigger, more serious MTTs. People do lots of weird stuff and it's a bit of a mental health saver and variance reducer.

 

[AWenger]

would you keep the bounty, and only rebuy for the stack (say, $35 instead of $40)?

would you forfeit your bounty?

If everyone else who busted the tounament is paying $40 for a rebuy (in this example: $35 to prize pool + $5 bounty), then it seems fair that someone surrendering a short stack would also pay $40 for a full stack, and not get a $5 discount upon surrender.

I think the player who surrenders his stack would still have 1 bounty.

I would put the 'extra' $5, for the first bounty into the tournament prize pool and not into the bounty pool. Think of it this way -- player surrenders his original stack, and surrenders his bounty, but since no other player eliminated him to collect the bounty, the original $5 bounty is surrendered back into the overall prize pool. That's just the penalty for the player wanting to surrender a short stack & bounty chip in a bounty tournament.

 

[Mojo1312]

Am I wrong, or is "surrendering stacks" a fancy term that allows short stack players to add-on?

 

[Blaster]

Am I wrong, or is "surrendering stacks" a fancy term that allows short stack players to add-on?

Yes, but usually not economically...
There is generaly no incentive really to pay a full buy in to get a quarter or third of a stack , so it's only going to be used by a player that just has a couple/few BBs left, and usually only if it's very close to the end of the RB period, otherwise he'd just as soon go all in & then Rebuy ....

 

[AWenger]

Am I wrong, or is "surrendering stacks" a fancy term that allows short stack players to add-on?

It's not exactly an add-on, but surrendering a (short) stack.

Say starting stacks are 10000. Two players, one with 2500 and one with 3200 go all in, and let's assume it's on the last hand before the break/rebuy period. The guy with 2500 wins the had and doubles up, leaving the guy who had 3200 with only 700 in chips left right at the end of the rebuy level.

The 'surrender' option would allow the guy with 700 in chips, now with a severely crippled stack, to surrender his stack, and rebuy for the full amount for the full starting stack (or rebuy stack, if different). So he starts the next level after the rebuy period with 10000, not 10700.

Edit: the 'surrender' option is really for non add-on tournaments.

 

[krafticus]

Am I wrong, or is "surrendering stacks" a fancy term that allows short stack players to add-on?

Ehhh... let’s say you started with 10k. The blinds are 150/300 and you just got coolered and have 2300 left. It’s 2 minutes until the RB ends. You are the BB and everyone folds to you. You gain 150, but there is now 1 min left. If you have to bust to rebuy, you need to have someone call you. The next, there is a limper. You shove your 2450 but the other player tank folds. You now have 2800 ish now and cannot rebuy.

Now, if we allow the surrender, you dump that 2800 and rebuy for the full 10k stack. That 2800 you had is now out of play.

You didn’t add on, you essentially DQ’ed yourself, but then bought back in.

 

[Mojo1312]

The only two sensible approaches to me is to allow players to keep their bounty until they are officially knocked out or to have them forfeit their bounty when they top off with the proceeds from the $5 going into the prize pool. The latter treats the stacking up as a re-buy. The third option is to simply run a $40 tournament without a bounty.

 

[MikesDad]

Interesting thoughts here... thanks for that and thanks to @krafticus for posting here
I first heard about surrendering short stacks here on PCF from someone and liked the idea to deal with the situation Mark mentioned in post #27. I don't recall if the person who mentioned it ran a rebuy tournament or not

I like option A in that you're rebuying chips, not reentering the tournament after a bust-out, so you keep your bounty
Option C of having two bounties on your head could work too... obviously playing to knock out a 2-bounty player would change the dynamics some

With option B maybe the forfeited the bounty money could go to the snack fund :

 

[Heavyball]

We do $20 buyin, $5 of which goes to bounty. Rebuys end after level 7. Rebuy equals starting stack. During levels 1-6, you can only rebuy after busting, and you get a new bounty chip.

During level 7, one rebuy is allowed while you still have chips. All $20 goes to prize pool, no 2nd bounty chip.

No surrender.

Works well...