Tourney Re-buy or Not Re-buy (4 Viewers)

[Poker Zombie]

From a money perspective, the strategy for rebuys and freezeouts is identical. Rebuys do not reward any type of player more than any other. The strategy is 100% identical.

I disagree. Money is a relative concept.

Player A makes deep six figures in his white-collar job. His bankroll for poker is several hundred dollars.
Player B is a a student with ever-mounting student debt. His expendable income is about $100 a month. That covers poker, dates, beer money and anything else.

At a $20 no-rebuy tournament, A and B are on equal footing. At a $20 unlimited rebuy tournament, Player A can perpetually jam. Player B can nit it up and do well, but pocket aces lose to 7-2 off-suit roughly 1 in 7 times.

I've seen this happen. Player A jammed so often that even though he won the tournament, his net gain was less than 3rd place. It really hurt the game, as there were a number of player B's in the group (most very new to poker). My option was to ban player A for playing in a very legal way, or to write the "Robbie Rule", limiting rebuys to one per player.

 

[upNdown]

I disagree. Money is a relative concept.

Player A makes deep six figures in his white-collar job. His bankroll for poker is several hundred dollars.
Player B is a a student with ever-mounting student debt. His expendable income is about $100 a month. That covers poker, dates, beer money and anything else.

At a $20 no-rebuy tournament, A and B are on equal footing. At a $20 unlimited rebuy tournament, Player A can perpetually jam. Player B can nit it up and do well, but pocket aces lose to 7-2 off-suit roughly 1 in 7 times.

I've seen this happen. Player A jammed so often that even though he won the tournament, his net gain was less than 3rd place. It really hurt the game, as there were a number of player B's in the group (most very new to poker). My option was to ban player A for playing in a very legal way, or to write the "Robbie Rule", limiting rebuys to one per player.

I think @Frogzilla was pretty clear.
To him, good poker is blasting off whenever you want. When that strategy fails in a cash game, the only penalty is monetary. And since some people (good poker players) don’t care about money, there is no penalty.
But in a tournament, there’s the added penalty that your game is over. So he wants to have his cake and eat it too. Let him blast off whenever he wants in a tournament, and then rebuy rebuy rebuy. That way, he gets to run over the guy who would rather play carefully, because he cares about his money.

 

[ekricket]

Sounds interesting. I'm not familiar with "add-ons" really. So, after the first color up if you didn't get felted, does the 5000 add-on cost or are you given it? If felted before color up and you rebuy I assume it's full cost for half stack then, right?

The cost is in the initial buyin. So for a $10 tournament it’s $15 to participate in the rebuy/addon. No more money comes out of anybody’s pocket after the initial buyin. Host doesn’t have to run get chips if someone busts out.

There is one game that runs every week in Oklahoma with this format. It has been running every week except holidays for 16 years and it is always two tables full. Always.

We have been running this format in New Mexico two (2) weekly games (thursday at my house, Saturday another local hosts) for almost 5 years. We don’t lose players unless they die or move. No problems filling two tables, sometimes we go to three depending on whose in town.

I’ve heard it said that this is the quickest way to ruin a game. That’s from people that don’t have games anymore and can’t get anything going. You decide which one works and which one doesn’t.
I’m just sharing something that works in the field, not theoretical or “back when we had a game”. Listen to who you want.

 

[upNdown]

Daniel Negreanu often says that he dislikes rebuys - that they’re bad for tournaments and thus they’re bad for the poker world in general. Daniel Negreanu is also the guy who once rebought over 40 times in a WSOP tournament. He’s rich enough to rebuy whenever he wants, and smart enough to take advantage of the rules, but he’ll freely admit it’s not good tournament poker.
I know that isn’t very relevant to the real problem of what to do with the guy who gets knocked out early in a home tournament. But I think it’s worth mentioning, for perspective.
But in my opinion, the best solution here is Grant’s. With @ekricket as runner up. Fixed costs!

I run my tournaments to be super deep stacked (500-1000 BB with a full rebuy behind) with one rebuy or addon included. The game really starts 2 hours in when rebuys are done and everyone gets that far for the most part unless you try really hard to bust out. This ensures everyone gets to play poker for 2-3 hours.

The rebuy (or addon if rebuy is unused) is included in the buyin. This way everyone is on equal footing.

With pure rebuys people who dont have big wallets feel like they are at a disadvantage.

It seems to be a hit with players and i get a lot of comments about how people enjoy being able to get a lot of poker in

For me its about having people get a lot of play in when they are booking the evening to play poker.

Prize pools are actually deeper as I just increase the buyin (previously $20 with rebuys became $40 buyin for everyone).

 

[ekricket]

I run my tournaments to be super deep stacked (500-1000 BB with a full rebuy behind) with one rebuy or addon included. The game really starts 2 hours in when rebuys are done and everyone gets that far for the most part unless you try really hard to bust out. This ensures everyone gets to play poker for 2-3 hours.

The rebuy (or addon if rebuy is unused) is included in the buyin. This way everyone is on equal footing.

With pure rebuys people who dont have big wallets feel like they are at a disadvantage.

It seems to be a hit with players and i get a lot of comments about how people enjoy being able to get a lot of poker in

For me its about having people get a lot of play in when they are booking the evening to play poker.

Prize pools are actually deeper as I just increase the buyin (previously $20 with rebuys became $40 buyin for everyone).

The half rebuy works for us because we also play from 7-11ish, not 7:00- 2:30am. People gotta work.

 

[Mr Winberg]

No Cash Game - This sounds harsh (and we allow one cash game once a year), but cash games create a counter-culture that makes the tournament a nuisance that you have to get through to get to the cash game where the good players can earn more.

That's like having a no dessert rule because people eat the steak to fast!

The half rebuy works for us because we also play from 7-11ish, not 7:00- 2:30am. People gotta work.

Just an FYI, if you change from half prebuy to full prebuy, that increases the total chip count with 33%. When using the 20BB rule (or whichever way you use to predict the tourney end) that just means roughly 1 more level.

 

[Frogzilla]

I think @Frogzilla was pretty clear.
To him, good poker is blasting off whenever you want. When that strategy fails in a cash game, the only penalty is monetary. And since some people (good poker players) don’t care about money, there is no penalty.
But in a tournament, there’s the added penalty that your game is over. So he wants to have his cake and eat it too. Let him blast off whenever he wants in a tournament, and then rebuy rebuy rebuy. That way, he gets to run over the guy who would rather play carefully, because he cares about his money.

The most +EV money play is in general looser than most tournaments I see.

I guess you could be in a group where optimal play is tighter than what is happening, preflop opens maybe that’s common for people to be wide but I’ve never been in a tournament in my life where people played river as aggressive as optimal. 3-betting pre is way too tight, 4-bet bluffing pre is basically non existent.

If you see high level play at Triton, Poker Masters, etc, you’ll notice hey they’re super loose and that’s because that’s how good poker is played. Not blasting off because they don’t care about money, but squeezing out every last edge because they definitely do care.

 

[upNdown]

The most +EV money play is in general looser than most tournaments I see.

I guess you could be in a group where optimal play is tighter than what is happening, preflop opens maybe that’s common for people to be wide but I’ve never been in a tournament in my life where people played river as aggressive as optimal. 3-betting pre is way too tight, 4-bet bluffing pre is basically non existent.

If you see high level play at Triton, Poker Masters, etc, you’ll notice hey they’re super loose and that’s because that’s how good poker is played. Not blasting off because they don’t care about money, but squeezing out every last edge because they definitely do care.

Right. That’s why I said I couldn’t argue with you. I used “blasting off” as colorful exaggeration.
Point is, if you play good poker, you DO risk going home early in a freeze out. But that’s the risk in exchange for the reward of going deep with a big stack.
You want to eliminate that risk with rebuys. And if everybody’s all for it, great. But if there’s even one guy at that table who doesn’t want to pay for a rebuy, you’re taking advantage of him. Maybe it’s more accurate to say he’s a chump for playing in a game that he doesn’t want to play fully. But the end result is the same.

 

[MrCatPants]

View attachment 994731

I've got some of my crew who come for only the tournaments because thy like tournaments. Cash game after never makes, except for after the league championship.

I do have that one guy who always is trying to get the tournament over with to try to start a cash game. I don't get why people who don't like tournaments still come to play tournaments.

 

[BGinGA]

You want to eliminate that risk with rebuys. And if everybody’s all for it, great. But if there’s even one guy at that table who doesn’t want to pay for a rebuy, you’re taking advantage of him.

That's the advantage of hybrid / re-load / pre-buy tournaments -- the overall cost is fixed (like in a freeze-out event), but with part of the players' stacks being withheld at the start, there is still some degree of cooler insurance (like in a single re-buy event).

 

[BGinGA]

A few years ago, we experimented with a multiple stack option format. Initially, it was a 20k tourney where you could choose to start with either 20k, or 10k plus a 10k plaque (plaques did not play, but could be exchanged at any time between hands for 10k in chips). At the end of a designated time period (similar to a re-buy period), any remaining unused plaques were converted to chips. The players were split about 50-50 between the two starting choices.

We later went to 30k stacks, with the option to start with either 30k, 20k with a 10k plaque, or 10k with two 10k plaques. About 25% started with full stacks, about 25% started with just 10k, with about half the field starting with 20k and a single plaque.

It made for some interesting player decisions, and the varying-size stacks definitely altered play strategy during the early levels.

 

[ekricket]

Just an FYI, if you change from half prebuy to full prebuy, that increases the total chip count with 33%. When using the 20BB rule (or whichever way you use to predict the tourney end) that just means roughly 1 more level.

Maybe if you have careless shovy blasting off people that need rebuys to even play an entire tournament.
But good or better players will take that 33% a lot further in levels than you calculate. Hours.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Maybe if you have careless shovy blasting off people that need rebuys to even play an entire tournament.
But good or better players will take that 33% a lot further in levels than you calculate. Hours.

It also depends on how your structure is built. I know most here (including you) are very aware of how to calculate a tournament's end. I found that the 110% stack on a rebuy did not extend the tournament 10% longer. It added exactly 0% to the overall timing.

Number of players, the percentage of players to take the rebuy, and how big each jump in the structure is, will vary how many levels (or how much time) a rebuy will extend the tournament (if indeed, at all).

I do not like unlimited rebuys, and avoid them when possible. I'm not a fan of freezeouts, but appreciate them. I really cannot comment on the hybrid / re-load / pre-buy tournament because I haven't played in one. I rarely disagree with Dave's wisdom, so I would not be opposed to playing in one, but I would be reticent to try to implement it without trying it out someplace else, first.

 

[grantc54]

Maybe if you have careless shovy blasting off people that need rebuys to even play an entire tournament.
But good or better players will take that 33% a lot further in levels than you calculate. Hours.

Dunno about that. The 20BB rule has been consistent for me for over 25 years. Max one or two levels over the expected BB. I guess if your levels are an hour long (or very small increases) you could go over.

The other advantage of having the rebuy/addon built in and limited to one per player is that you can better estimate end time when you know how many players to expect.

 

[ekricket]

I found that the 110% stack on a rebuy did not extend the tournament 10% longer. It added exactly 0% to the overall timing.

Did chopping increase any, just to end at a decent hour?
Did people start calling “whatever” just to end it, especially the last 2-3 players?
Did it change the action after the money bubble?

 

[raynmanas]

Man, you guys would hate my friendly home game (not that we've played it in 2+ years). $30 STT, unlimited rebuys. Yes, unlimited. We used to have the typical 3 blind level limit, but inevitably someone would bust just after the limit and try to beg their way back in, and since we are all friends and want to hang out, everyone would unanimously agree to let them rebuy anyway, and then the next guy out would pull the same thing, so eventually we just gave up and said you can rebuy until you don't think it's worth it anymore. This way everyone gets to play for as long as they want, and eventually the cost/benefit isn't there and they give up. Generally that happens around the 2 hour mark (5k starting stacks, blinds 200/400 at the end of 2 hours), but sometimes people will punt off another one or two at <10BBs because why not.

For a 10-player game, we probably average 5-6 total rebuys and the worst off might have 3 rebuys. We're usually still done within 3.5-4 hours.

I should emphasize this is all long-time friends - I would never endorse this for a more serious game, and obviously we should just play cash, but they all prefer tournaments. Shrug.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Maybe if you have careless shovy blasting off people that need rebuys to even play an entire tournament.
But good or better players will take that 33% a lot further in levels than you calculate. Hours.

No. The "20BB rule" (or whatever you call it) does not take playing styles into consideration. The logic is merely that with two players left, the shortstack has at most 10 BBs, meaning there will be lots of all-ins and the tourney should end soon, if not already.

Example: If you're 20 players with 10k stacks + 50% prebuy, that means 300k in play. The tourney should end on or before the 8k/16k level (almost 20 BBs in play).

Are you saying that with good players, the extra 5k they get would last hours more? That with 400k in play, the 20BB rule no longer applies, but it did with 300k in play?

Lets say 20 minute levels and "standard-ish blinds":

6k/12k
8k/16k - should end here with 50% prebuy
10k/20k
15k/30k
20k/40k (1 hour later, but still not plural hours)
30k/60k
40k/80k
60k/120k - finally 2 hours, so with 100% prebuys the tourney ends here? Each heads up player has 1.67 BBs each...

I don't think it will last as long as you think.

I found that the 110% stack on a rebuy did not extend the tournament 10% longer.

Nor should that be expected

It added exactly 0% to the overall timing.

This, however, is expected.

Blinds don't increase linearly, but exponentially. So tourney time won't increase linearly with the total chip count. If a tourney doubles the blinds every two levels (which is quite common in home games), then doubling the chip count is expected to increase the tourney time with 2 levels.

 

[ekricket]

No. The "20BB rule" (or whatever you call it) does not take playing styles into consideration. The logic is merely that with two players left, the shortstack has at most 10 BBs, meaning there will be lots of all-ins and the tourney should end soon, if not already.

Example: If you're 20 players with 10k stacks + 50% prebuy, that means 300k in play. The tourney should end on or before the 8k/16k level (almost 20 BBs in play).

Are you saying that with good players, the extra 5k they get would last hours more? That with 400k in play, the 20BB rule no longer applies, but it did with 300k in play?

Lets say 20 minute levels and "standard-ish blinds":

6k/12k
8k/16k - should end here with 50% prebuy
10k/20k
15k/30k
20k/40k (1 hour later, but still not plural hours)
30k/60k
40k/80k
60k/120k - finally 2 hours, so with 100% prebuys the tourney ends here? Each heads up player has 1.67 BBs each...

I don't think it will last as long as you think.


Nor should that be expected


This, however, is expected.

Blinds don't increase linearly, but exponentially. So tourney time won't increase linearly with the total chip count. If a tourney doubles the blinds every two levels (which is quite common in home games), then doubling the chip count is expected to increase the tourney time with 2 levels.

K. Try it in real life a few times, then share the data so we can see how real life compares the theoretical. I’m curious if real life matches the calculations like it typically does in everything else.
2 hrs is plural hours. I was speaking generally about 2:30am not calculating an exact ending time.

I’ll make it more general for you.
With a full rebuy the tournament will last longer.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I have the data from 2014 until today. It pairs up exactly as @Mr Winberg states. I've got data from T500,000 tourneys down to a T2800 starting stack. I got there the long way before @BGinGA pointed out the 20 BB concept, and it was like magic. I'll never make another structure without it.

I'm certain you already know this, and there's something getting lost in the reading.

 

[Mr Winberg]

K. Try it in real life a few times, then share the data so we can see how real life compares the theoretical.

I have, many many times. In practice, the 20 bb rule works best for small, relatively fast tourneys. If doing turbos, it can break more often, i.e. it can go on further. Longer tourneys of ~6 hours and beyond usually end with more BBs than 20 (unless the field also increases). Antes also increase the number of BBs left.

My 24 player max tourneys with BBA are scheduled for 5.5h effective playing time. I use the 30BB rule, but they often end sooner, seldom later.

Basically the starting stacks don’t matter?

What?? Where did you get that from? I just said that levels increase exponentially, so linear stack size increments don't mean linear increase of the tourney time. This is not controversial in any way, it's pretty basic.

K. Try it in real life a few times, then share the data so we can see how real life compares the theoretical. I’m curious if real life matches the calculations like it typically does in everything else.

Basically the starting stacks don’t matter? Should be cheaper to buy tourney sets now if you only need a few chips to last hours. And if they do matter at some point, where’s the cutoff points?

I think arguing over this is pointless. Instead, can you please share your total chip count when using 50% prebuys and which level you plan for the tourney to end? Then, please share the expected total chip count if instead using 100% prebuys and at which level you'd expect those to end (i.e. the "hours later")? I am very curious about this.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I'm certain you already know this, and there's something getting lost in the reading.

Yes, must be a misunderstanding.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Did chopping increase any, just to end at a decent hour?
Did people start calling “whatever” just to end it, especially the last 2-3 players?
Did it change the action after the money bubble?

Had 2 chops since 2009. Always ends at a decent hour.

Nobody has ever called "whatever" except in a charity game. No money was at risk (no buy-in) and prizes went only to charity, so there was little for the players to play for (except to have fun and to raise funds).

Action frequently changes after the money bubble. There are some people who just want to cash, others that want to win or go home. Once we get toward the end of the season and Player of the Year points are close, that can also alter action for those concerned (which is why our point system only accounts for players that finish in the money - because nothing else should matter).

 

[ekricket]

I have the data from 2014 until today. It pairs up exactly as @Mr Winberg states. I've got data from T500,000 tourneys down to a T2800 starting stack. I got there the long way before @BGinGA pointed out the 20 BB concept, and it was like magic. I'll never make another structure without it.

I'm certain you already know this, and there's something getting lost in the reading.

I think I got off track. The main thing for us about the half rebuy is it shuts down the shoving and possible wild play right before the end of the rebuy period. It leveled out the last rebuy level and just let us play poker. It isn’t worth shoving your last 2000 chips just to get 5000 and still be short stacked. Sorry for the taking the bait on the derail.

 

[grantc54]

Man, you guys would hate my friendly home game (not that we've played it in 2+ years). $30 STT, unlimited rebuys. Yes, unlimited. We used to have the typical 3 blind level limit, but inevitably someone would bust just after the limit and try to beg their way back in, and since we are all friends and want to hang out, everyone would unanimously agree to let them rebuy anyway, and then the next guy out would pull the same thing, so eventually we just gave up and said you can rebuy until you don't think it's worth it anymore. This way everyone gets to play for as long as they want, and eventually the cost/benefit isn't there and they give up. Generally that happens around the 2 hour mark (5k starting stacks, blinds 200/400 at the end of 2 hours), but sometimes people will punt off another one or two at <10BBs because why not.

For a 10-player game, we probably average 5-6 total rebuys and the worst off might have 3 rebuys. We're usually still done within 3.5-4 hours.

I should emphasize this is all long-time friends - I would never endorse this for a more serious game, and obviously we should just play cash, but they all prefer tournaments. Shrug.

This is what we used to do, we'd allow rebuys until the money (pays 3, 4th person out can't rebuy), but we'd cap rebuys at one and then people who busted early would beg for two, etc. Etc.

Surprisingly some people will rebuy even when it very clearly doesnt3 make sense (like 3BB). And to clarify, I'm talking about myself.

 

[ekricket]

I am very curious about this.

Sorry, I’m not anymore. We do us and you do you. If you want to try this method fine. If you don’t then just don’t. I was just offering something that worked somewhere. If you want to keep calculating go ahead, we’ll be over here playing poker.

Our game has rebuys, but no wild period before it ends. It’s very rare for someone to even use the rebuy anymore, people just play better to stay longer.
Our game starts at a time and ends at a time that is comfortable for the people that play in it.
Our game is consistent and is vibrant. People’s life’s change and interests change but we always have full tables over the years.

Other formats have the same things going for them. Try a different one or don’t, I don’t think anyone cares.

 

[ekricket]

Yes, must be a misunderstanding.

Perhaps - I’m not stating a fact so you don’t have to fact check it- but perhaps one misunderstanding is around why there are rebuys in yours or ours tournaments.

We aren’t trying to increase the prize pool, and I’m not saying you are either.
We are trying to make the social experience worth coming to for every game.

So - for us- it’s kind of a safety net in case something unexpected happens early, but it’s not a do over that let’s you purposely make mistakes because you can maybe buy your way out of them.
For us - it has helped players develop their thinking and playing skills. Every hand matters in every level.

We originally had the one full rebuy that you could buy on top of your entry. There were games where you just took your break during the level before the rebuy break, because sometimes it was just coin flips for that level. That was not an enjoyable social experience for the poker players.
So we actually searched and tried several things to keep the spirit of the rebuy alive - enjoyable social experience- but minimized the variance that it could bring to the game.

If our purpose was to increase the prize pool or something we would have tried other things and settled on something different I’m sure, like unlimited 150% rebuys for half price.

So maybe this is part of it and maybe it isn’t, I haven’t calculated it yet. Maybe you can.

But our buyins and prize pools are good for our socio-economic standpoint. We have millionaires playing with dishwashers and we are all on equal footing at the table. The dishwasher wins about as many tournaments as the millionaire and they both keep coming back twice a week.

 

[ekricket]

Perhaps - I’m not stating a fact so you don’t have to fact check it- but perhaps one misunderstanding is around why there are rebuys in yours or ours tournaments.

We aren’t trying to increase the prize pool, and I’m not saying you are either.
We are trying to make the social experience worth coming to for every game.

So - for us- it’s kind of a safety net in case something unexpected happens early, but it’s not a do over that let’s you purposely make mistakes because you can maybe buy your way out of them.
For us - it has helped players develop their thinking and playing skills. Every hand matters in every level.

We originally had the one full rebuy that you could buy on top of your entry. There were games where you just took your break during the level before the rebuy break, because sometimes it was just coin flips for that level. That was not an enjoyable social experience for the poker players.
So we actually searched and tried several things to keep the spirit of the rebuy alive - enjoyable social experience- but minimized the variance that it could bring to the game.

If our purpose was to increase the prize pool or something we would have tried other things and settled on something different I’m sure, like unlimited 150% rebuys for half price.

So maybe this is part of it and maybe it isn’t, I haven’t calculated it yet. Maybe you can.

But our buyins and prize pools are good for our socio-economic standpoint. We have millionaires playing with dishwashers and we are all on equal footing at the table. The dishwasher wins about as many tournaments as the millionaire and they both keep coming back twice a week.

Lol I’m not letting this lie! No, really I just thought about one other thing - it wasn’t really just the level before the rebuy that the full rebuy affected things. It was even in the earliest rounds, the 25/50 where people would make questionable calls and plays because the knew they had forgiveness coming eventually f they kept it up. So sometimes it was all the levels before the rebuy where you had to dodge landmines.

And sometimes you were the one playing solid poker that needed the rebuy cause some donk was gambling with J4, calling a 10x preflop raise “just for fun” and “he thought it would be funny” and hitting JJ4 on the flop. That does not make for enjoyable, or even decent poker. It runs people off.
In the full rebuy format - in our game - these “disruptive” first levels would end up reverberating through the whole tournament and it wasn’t what we wanted.
So anyway it was a disruption to the poker development we wanted, but we wanted the social benefits it could bring.
That’s how we ended up in our format.

 

[ekricket]

Plus I’m over here in Europe, it’s fucking 2 in the morning and I’ve got insomnia. Oktoberfest right off the bat for three days just hasn’t let me adjust yet to sleeping on regular time over here. Finally on the boat so maybe the next few nights will level out.

 

[ekricket]

This is one of the players that this game developed. He’s the Oklahoma host that still uses the format I described. YMMV

https://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?n=129071

 

[Mr Winberg]

Hej @ekricket, I didn't mean to step on any toes. And I haven't questioned having 50% prebuy. When I have rebuys nowadays (rare, but it happens) I also use the prebuy format for the same reasons you've stated, mainly having a safety net without encouraging reckless play and the one about not wanting to build the price pool (in a social game with friends I want everyone to pay the same and I don't want people thinking I am trying to get them to open their wallets). We agree on very much here!

However: This is a forum and some people read these posts to learn. I merely stated that one of the things you posted was factually incorrect, not so much for your benefit but for those who will read this. I tried using "calculations" but since those weren't respected I also tried sharing my experiences.

For others, new hosts perhaps: A common misconception is that e.g. "If we double the stack sizes, the tourney length doubles". This isn't true, it simply cannot be true, and once you host a few formats and think about why tournaments finally end (within the short timeframe of a homegame) then you will realize this. Similarly, adding 33% to the stacks will not lengthen the tournament by 33%, but maybe by a level. Calculate it or experience it, the results will be the same.

Also for new hosts: The 20BB rule is a rough estimate. I've had tourneys end with 60BBs left and with 10(!) left. You can't predict, only estimate.