Tourney Re-buy or Not Re-buy (1 Viewer)

Brandon

Brandon

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I am certain there's a thread on this somewhere, but just curious thoughts around this...I have run a handful of tourneys in the past (only one since Covid and now part of @MrCatPants group so no rush to fire it back up. BUT, I have been contemplating running again and wanted thoughts around re-buys vs. freeze outs. I have had more than a few folks that have played (mostly cash players mind you) that have complained when I ran re-buys. Their thought process is that the entire tourney gets skewed the 15 - 20 minutes or so before re-buy cut off. Naturally my argument is you could be the recipient of some of the more aggressive plays, but when they don't get hands to call then their irritation is that others are the recipients and double or triple up within a few minutes because no one cares about posting another small buy-in when they do lose. I suppose ONE way to fix this is don't have a cut-off and simply allow for one rebuy any time (the deeper the tourney goes, the less their new rebuy deposit will get them in terms of BB's so at some point it becomes uneconomic). But I think the preference is buy in, play your stack, and when you're out, you're out.

Would like to hear thoughts on optionality as it relates to re-buys vs freeze out vs. timing of re-buys...
 
Firstly, if you run freezouts, people will whine there are no rebuys in they get unlucky. You run rebuys, people will complain they favor the aggros. You run limited rebuys, people will complain they are limited. People suck.

That being said, I strongly favor freezouts, because selfish.
 
I’ve had some pretty good experience with this, having played the same weekly MTT (100ish runners) many times before and after it because a rebuy.
When it’s a rebuy:
1) you have to play for the entire rebuy period knowing people will play like stations and hang around until they catch. Adjust your play accordingly.
2) in the last level where rebuys are allowed, assume any stack less than half a starting stack in coming in. Adjust your play accordingly.
The funny thing was, this was a great structure deep tournament. At that point in the tournament where rebuys were cut off, half a starting stack was worth something like 30 big blinds - not really short stacked at all. But people were just dying to use their rebuys.
Having rebuys hugely affects the way people play, for as long as there’s a rebuy available.

So here’s my opinion. If you’re doing a long, deep stack tournament don’t sully it with rebuys. I know it sucks for a home tournament when a guy gets coolered in the first hour and then he’s screwed. Oh well - that doesn’t actually happen very often, early in a well-structured deep tournament, if people don’t play stupid.

Or, run a donkey show with a cheaper buyin where everybody gets multiple cheap rebuys that they can alternatively they use as addons when the rebuy period ends. That way everybody knows what they’re getting into, there’s some incentive/reward for not donking off your buyins, and if people can expect to max out their rebuys / addons for about what a freezout tournament would have cost, you might get fewer complaints.
 
My players don't like to play cash games really, which sucks. So, I like to run STT with rebuys because if I didn't my guys will get knocked out and just leave. There no waiting around for a 2nd game usually or cash game to move to. So, at least they have the option to buy back in if they get knocked out and continue playing. I cut off rebuys right before the first break and color up.

A few complain because of exactly what you mention, people going a little crazy right before the break because they know they can just buy back in. I really hear the complaining when a person who bought back in wins, and especially if it's against someone who is on their original buy-in.

I did try rebuys for the whole tournament but my players aren't as dumb as they look and realized buying back in for 10K in chips when the blind are 1K/2K isn't the most economical use of their money.

People are gonna bitch and cry no matter what. I like the unlimited rebuys before the break.
 
I do a one rebuy option during the first two levels just in case someone gets coolered. We do STT and do three of them each poker night (10+ hours or so)
 
We run a low stakes tourney every two weeks that is $10 buy in and $10 rebuys until the first break, which is at 2 hours of play. After that, the tournament usually goes another 3-4 hours depending on the night. We are a very friendly (read: not too serious) and gambly group, so the rebuys work well for us.

I will point out that recently we've had more players (14-18) and with the rebuys and 100% of the field relatively deep-stacked at the 2hr mark, the tournaments are taking a long, long time to finish. We had 18 players the other night and ended up going for almost 7 hours, even with 15-minute levels and a reasonable starting stack and structure. With a freezeout you probably avoid the "going too long" issue and can offer longer levels because of it.
 
I've had larger events for the past 15 or so years (21-32 players) and I always run it as a freeze out. Keeps the chaos down and you are better able to determine how long it will last as you know the total chip count and can set up the blind levels accordingly.

That being said, last Sunday we had a NFL watch party event and only got 11 players. Not wanting anyone to go home too early, we set it up as a re-buy tourney with a cut off at the 3 hour mark. We had 13 re-buys and yes there was a flurry in the half hour before the cut off. Luckily I had a good chip stack and was able to take advantage of those desperate to double up or bust out so they could re-buy. It ended up being a lot of fun but I wouldn't want to do it for a larger event.
 
This immediately above!

People have planned to play poker most of the evening. For a common 2 table home tournament, if I get coolered early and it's feeezeout, I'm not going to hang out for 3-4 hours waiting on a potential cash game. I'm going home!

At least allow 1 rebuy.

And why be stingy about this, don't you want a larger prize pool!
 
dkersey said:
And why be stingy about this, don't you want a larger prize pool!
Click to expand...
Well, some people are drawn to freezeout tournaments because it is a fixed cost. Maybe they're comfortable blowing a $100 buy-in. But maybe they'd rather not fire another $100 or two in for rebuys.
 
upNdown said:
Well, some people are drawn to freezeout tournaments because it is a fixed cost. Maybe they're comfortable blowing a $100 buy-in. But maybe they'd rather not fire another $100 or two in for rebuys.
Click to expand...
Rebuys are optional. For those folks, they can sit and wait (...or go home).
 
You know my answer - but I did try different options over the years before settling on the current structure. One rebuy maximum - and use the seating chip to track it. (and no buying or selling of rebuy chips)

It covers the "I showed up for 10 minutes and got coolered" issues but limits maniac tendencies. Freeze out has it's place, but in my opinion that's not a friendly home game where it's a 'night out' for people, they are driving some distance to get there, etc.
 
I run my tournaments to be super deep stacked (500-1000 BB with a full rebuy behind) with one rebuy or addon included. The game really starts 2 hours in when rebuys are done and everyone gets that far for the most part unless you try really hard to bust out. This ensures everyone gets to play poker for 2-3 hours.

The rebuy (or addon if rebuy is unused) is included in the buyin. This way everyone is on equal footing.

With pure rebuys people who dont have big wallets feel like they are at a disadvantage.

It seems to be a hit with players and i get a lot of comments about how people enjoy being able to get a lot of poker in

For me its about having people get a lot of play in when they are booking the evening to play poker.

Prize pools are actually deeper as I just increase the buyin (previously $20 with rebuys became $40 buyin for everyone).
 
We run a hybrid. For a T10,000 tourney you get 10,0000 and an extra $5000 that isn’t in play until after the first colorup. If it you are felted with your original ten, you can use your 5000 as a rebuy. So you get half stack for rebuy.
If you play good and dint felt, it becomes an addon and it’s live after that.

This helps mitigate the coolers in the early rounds, but it’s not incentive to shove if you are short stacked before the first break because it’s not worth it. It’s better to save your short stack and add on the 50000 when you can.

Works for us
 
I have an adjacent question I've been meaning to ask and this thread seems relevant enough to just drop it here:

When running a tournament with rebuys (be it the max 1 per person or otherwise), do you calculate your payouts based on total entrants (just players), or total buy-ins (# of players+ # of rebuys)?

For my game that I've been running for about a year now, we've been doing the max 1 rebuy per person thing and it works great for what we do, then I've always done payouts based on headcount only, on a scale of 7-12 top 3 / 13+ top 4. Usually we're in that 1 table range and pay top 3, even if half of those players end up rebuying (the first six months or so this was pretty common, but as players have improved we're seeing fewer, so it's become less of an issue. But all the same...), so I've started wondering if we should be looking at total buy-ins instead.
 
We tend to do this:

Rebuys: $10 - $30 fun games, loose play, good for the not too serious in any group. The Xmas $10 rebuy, might be the funniest, most enjoyable tournament of the year in our group

Limited Re-buy/Add-on: $50 - $120 usually one rebuy, one Add-on. Semi-serious, allows the tighter players to sit on their initial buyin' if they like and the aggro's to splash a little and not be out if they lose that initial buyin'. Add-on lets people who might be on the tighter side to spend for additional chips if they think they are a chance of cashing.

Freezeouts: $150+ Serious play, top-heavy prize structure.

Having said that, I rather play cash!!
 
We generally run one of the following (all events run 4.5 - 5.5 hours for 2 tables):

Option A (single re-buy, 250-300bb stacks)

One optional re-buy (equal to starting stack) per player for the first X levels (cut-off determined by blind structure, typically when the re-buy amount = 30 to 40 BB).

Re-buy chips are used and have intrinsic value -- players with an unused Re-buy chip receive a free add-on at the end of re-buy period (typically 20% of starting stack size).

Surrender rule is used (may trade any stack size for a replacement re-buy stack), which helps minimize short-stack all-ins (especially towards the end of re-buy period), as does the availability of a free add-on if not re-buying.


Option B (single re-load, 100-150bb stacks)

Players start with a half-stack plus a Re-load chip. Players who are felted prior to the end of the re-load period redeem their Re-load chip for another half-stack (free). The re-load period is also blind structure dependent, typically ending when half-stack = 20BB

Players who have retained their Re-load chip until the end of the re-load period receive another half-stack add-on plus a 10% bonus (also free).

Runs similar to a re-buy event, except the 're-buy' is forced (everybody gets one) and it doesn't cost additional $$.


Regarding pay-outs for re-buy tournaments, we typically pay out 25% (rounded up) of the total number of buy-ins (initial plus re-buys), with a hard-stop rule of always paying less than 50% of the actual field size.
 
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A reason to not have rebuys:

I used to try various rebuy variants. Then I tried to get people to play cash. I started with a few cashgame nights, then tried to get people to play cash after tourneys. It failed because once people got knocked out (after rebuys etc) some went home and some wanted to wait for more players (but got fed up waiting and went home, thus repeating the vicious cycle).

So I switched to freezouts, and voilà! The post tourney cashgame flourished!

Now that we have a strong cash game culture where nearly everyone wants to play cash, I have started dabbling with rebuys again. Most tourneys are freezouts though, because they are more fun (subjectively) plus the "cooler protection" etc arguments aren't as important when a cash game is waiting.
 
ekricket said:
We run a hybrid. For a T10,000 tourney you get 10,0000 and an extra $5000 that isn’t in play until after the first colorup. If it you are felted with your original ten, you can use your 5000 as a rebuy. So you get half stack for rebuy.
If you play good and dint felt, it becomes an addon and it’s live after that.

This helps mitigate the coolers in the early rounds, but it’s not incentive to shove if you are short stacked before the first break because it’s not worth it. It’s better to save your short stack and add on the 50000 when you can.

Works for us
Click to expand...
I may try that…..but not sure rebuy for only half stack would go over well??
 
ekricket said:
We run a hybrid. For a T10,000 tourney you get 10,0000 and an extra $5000 that isn’t in play until after the first colorup. If it you are felted with your original ten, you can use your 5000 as a rebuy. So you get half stack for rebuy.
If you play good and dint felt, it becomes an addon and it’s live after that.

This helps mitigate the coolers in the early rounds, but it’s not incentive to shove if you are short stacked before the first break because it’s not worth it. It’s better to save your short stack and add on the 50000 when you can.

Works for us
Click to expand...
Sounds interesting. I'm not familiar with "add-ons" really. So, after the first color up if you didn't get felted, does the 5000 add-on cost or are you given it? If felted before color up and you rebuy I assume it's full cost for half stack then, right?
 
We started hosting in 2006. A lot of changes have happened over the years, in an effort to run the best game possible. I ate a lot of humble pie to get there, but man, it works.
  • Single rebuy - requires players to consider their consequences, provides protection from bad beats. We now have players that drive 6 - yes, SIX f***ing hours, each way for a 4.5 hour game. There is no way I'm sending them home at today's gas prices after a bad beat in level 3.
  • No Cash Game - This sounds harsh (and we allow one cash game once a year), but cash games create a counter-culture that makes the tournament a nuisance that you have to get through to get to the cash game where the good players can earn more.
  • Surrender Rule - Surrender your remaining chips to get a new stack. As @BGinGA points out, it greatly reduces short-stack shove bingo. Players still debate if it is better to shove with a half-stack (maintaining 100% chip equity) or to play your best poker and surrendering if you are still short (keeping equity out of your opponents hands). There is also the discussion on what % of a stack is playable or should be surrendered. These are very player-specific poker calculations that make the game fun.
  • 110% rebuy - We give rebuying players a slightly larger than starting stack (in direct contrast to the @ekricket 50% stack). This is because at the rebuy we are down to 16-20 BB (depending on the structure that night). This gives the late surrender players 18-22 BB.
 
Brandon said:
I may try that…..but not sure rebuy for only half stack would go over well??
Click to expand...
I have done this but with a full stack. Works well. I call it a "pre-buy". In my view a full stack is preferable because they will not be close to "all-in-or-fold territory" when they receive it.

ekricket said:
Half stack gives you a chance but doesn’t reward reckless play just to rebuy.
Click to expand...
In my experience, there was no reckless play with a full stack either, although in theory it should get slightly more reckless. My thinking:

Player A is break even. Player B is felted before the first break by player C, who apart from that is break even. Here are the theoretical stacks after the break (S = a starting stack)

Rebuys and add-ons: A=2S, B=2S, C=3C. Playing reckless mostly hurt B's wallet. C has some advantage.

Rebuy only: A=1S, B=1S, C=2S. More advantage to C.

Rebuy or addon (or: Full stack pre-buy): A=2S, B=1S, C=3S
B is now at a greater disadvantage. Reckless play not only hurts the wallet, but also the tournament chances.

Half-stack pre-buy:
A=1.5S, B=0.5, C=2.5S
or equivalently:
A=3, B=1, C=5
Reckless play really hurt the tournament chances!
 
From a money perspective, the strategy for rebuys and freezeouts is identical. Rebuys do not reward any type of player more than any other. The strategy is 100% identical.

But from a utility perspective, there is a hidden cost to busting in a freezeout…it sucks to not play poker while your friends are playing poker. And therefore, people will adjust away from optimum, towards nittiness, in freezeouts. And the patient nits, well, they get run over by “maniacs” playing better poker in rebuy formats, less so in freezeouts. So while strategy is identical, play may not be.

I allow rebuys because it’s more fun, more poker, and better poker.
 
Poker Zombie said:
  • No Cash Game - This sounds harsh (and we allow one cash game once a year), but cash games create a counter-culture that makes the tournament a nuisance that you have to get through to get to the cash game where the good players can earn more.
Click to expand...

E2D1FA07-2815-4FE8-AA01-1A71B3D024BB.gif
 
Frogzilla said:
From a money perspective, the strategy for rebuys and freezeouts is identical. Rebuys do not reward any type of player more than any other. The strategy is 100% identical.

But from a utility perspective, there is a hidden cost to busting in a freezeout…it sucks to not play poker while your friends are playing poker. And therefore, people will adjust away from optimum, towards nittiness, in freezeouts. And the patient nits, well, they get run over by “maniacs” playing better poker in rebuy formats, less so in freezeouts. So while strategy is identical, play may not be.

I allow rebuys because it’s more fun, more poker, and better poker.
Click to expand...
I have a hard time arguing with any of this. But if you don’t like that people adjust their play in tournaments (so as not to get knocked out) why don’t you just have a cash game?
 

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