Psypher1000
Straight Flush
Nevermind...thanks, @genopark!
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Poll: Damaged Wynn Tourney Chips Reimbursement Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter RainmanTrail
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Nevermind...thanks, @genopark!
genopark
Two Pair
ssanel54
Flush
You were missing the winking emoji. I have no clue if Danny has any more of these chips that he could just replace, but if they are all of a sudden worth $150 per chip as opposed to $4.20 then he should pay his fine and sell the others for a net gain.
...and if he does that, he should be banished from the PCF kingdom.
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RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
Yes, I have a very good idea as to what I think they are worth, but I don't want to influence the poll results. However, I'm also biased as I'm the person who snap bought these for almost $8k, so I don't think my opinion should count here. I'm content with the solution offered and will see it forward.
I will share my opinion after the poll has closed.
ssanel54
Flush
That seems pretty harsh. If a replacement value is determined and paid, then who cares what he does with any remaining chips that he may find. Historically Danny has provided many chips to the PCF community at very reasonable prices. I think the "Kingdom" would be much worse without him.
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RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
Oops, sorry, I intended to address this and forgot. The initial chip counts and damaged inventory are
408 - T25s (1 broken, 1 heavily damaged, 41 with minor damage, 365 still new)
410 - T100s (0 broken, 2 heavily damaged, 36 with minor damage, 372 still new)
410 - T500s (1 broken, 2 heavily damaged, 17 with minor damage, 390 still new)
370 - T1000s (4 broken, 10 heavily damaged, 26 with minor damage, 330 still new)
200 - T5000s (1 broken, 1 heavily damaged, 9 with minor damage, 189 still new)
genopark
Two Pair
Would he be willing to let you build a mint 1000 pc. set and send back all the rest for a prorated refund? That would be cool. All your racks would be complete.
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RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
I don't know, but I'm still keeping them.
Chippy McChiperson
4 of a Kind
Well then you're asking us to resolve this without complete information. With no chip valuation I'm inclined to agree with ssanel and say $4.20 per broken chip and $.84 per flea bitten chip.
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He obviously has trouble delivering those chips to the PCF community in a timely and safe manner. I can't help but wonder how this would've been handled had @RainmanTrail not gone public. My feeling is that he should do whatever he can to make it right if he is truly sorry. Should he have additional chips in hand, then he should step up and replace those he broke. Selling such chips (which are now more valuable due to his mistake) would be taking advantage of a situation he created. That's all I'm saying, just my opinion.
Fair enough. Are you going to give the damaged ones a proper burial? Something at least equivalent to what the family dog would get. Nice quiet corner in the back yard, a few words on how they will be missed and never forgotten, a reading of the condolences provided here by your PCF brothers and sisters and the quiet sound of taps playing on your smart phone. Anything less would be uncivilized.
Here's my proposal
Assumptions (based on self-reported counts from RT)
Assumptions (based on self-reported counts from RT)
- Total 100% loss on broken and heavily damaged chips
- Partial 50% loss on minor damage chips
- Upside potential/punitive damage
- Heavily damaged chips still have some value and can be sold
- Minor damage chips could have 75% of their value, but the assumption is only 50%
ssanel54
Flush
If you apply this logic, you also need to concede that RainMan's set increased in value due to the destruction of chips
This incident is a travesty, and could have easily been avoided with better packaging. I believe whenever an incident is made public, there is always some additional motivation besides just FBO the community. There may have been other incidents where Danny packed chips poorly, but given the number of sales that he has completed without incident, I don't know if he needs to be wearing a scarlet letter.
If you boil down this situation it sounds to me like Rainmain believes the value of these chips is more than what he paid for them and that he can recoup some of his cost by selling some of them off. I admire him if this is his approach, and think its a great way to attain grail sets at a reasonable price point. I don't think you can make an argument that because you feel they are worth more than your purchase price, that the replacement cost should be more than your purchase price. There is already an offer for a full refund, so you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Completely disagree with everything you said, but no worries.
ssanel54
Flush
feel free to disagree with me, but not sure how you can disagree with everything I said.
If Danny still has chips that you said increased in value because of this debacle, then why wouldn't Rainmans chips increase as well? They are the same chips
Given that you joined the Forum a few months ago, I don't know if you have purchased any chips from Danny. I have literally purchased several thousand from him over the last couple years. I received 1000 Uncirculated Dunes from him just a month ago, and none of them were damaged. I think what happened to Rainman is deplorable, but I don't necessarily feel that it should negate the success of probably hundreds of other transactions, that you state Danny is incapable of carrying out.
Was there a specific figure offered for partial refund by Danny or a specific figure demand by you? I got the impression from your OP in the other thread that the discussions were limited to him offering a full refund and you rejecting it.
I'm not going to argue with you and I'm not saying @RainmanTrail s chips increased in value or didn't increase in value. I'm saying @noblecountydanny needs to make it right in any way possible. It doesn't matter when I joined the forum, customer service is customer service. Again, not trying to argue with you - this isn't my fight.
Chippy McChiperson
4 of a Kind
He's offered a full refund and he's also offered a reimbursement for the damaged chips as per the community decided value. It sucks that it happened, but he is trying to make it right.
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RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
These were brand new before. There were countless little chip flakes stuck to the plastic wrap and on my poker table after opening them from them chipping off while in transit. If you had seen the packing job in person and how all the damage occurred and where it was on the chips the way they were packed, you would have no doubt that the damage occurred from this shipment.
It's difficult to exaggerate just how poorly they were packed and just how little protection they actually had.
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RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
I did not ask for a specific reimbursement amount. I said I wanted to work something out, and wanted a reasonable solution. I was hoping to resolve it privately. Danny was not open to discussing it with me. He waited two days to even respond despite having logged in, and all he said was "send them all back". I said that solution didn't work for me and wanted to work something out. He responded again with "send them all back, obviously you're not happy with the chips".
It wasn't until after I raised the issue publicly that he was open to resolving it in this manner.
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RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
You have been fortunate then. I have received numerous messages from several extremely well respected members of this community all thanking me for posting this, as they've all had damaged chips from Danny in the past. I'm not going to name names as I don't want to drag anyone else into this though. I also consulted privately with several members about how to handle this prior to making a public post. Every single one of them said "Out him!".
justsomedude
Straight Flush
I think @chkmte is simply pointing out that the chip destruction didn't occur in a vacuum. From an individual chip standpoint, yes, destruction of valuable chips (when a fixed quantity of chips exist in the public realm) increases the overall value of the remaining chips.
However, there is more going on here, such as, the loss of complete racks. We all know sets with complete racks have more value to collectors who like the "completeness" of a set, versus a set with random quantities of chips and incomplete racks. This also needs to be accounted for in a fair valuation, as it's part of the reason this set commanded such a high sale price. If the racks were incomplete, it would not have sold for anywhere near its $8,000 asking price.
Some would argue that the incomplete racks devalues the set more than the increased per-chip value due to the damaged/destroyed individual chips. Some would argue the opposite. Opinions vary. #meh
ssanel54
Flush
I was only responding to the passage above. As far as valuation goes I would agree with your initial sentiment. There is currently an offer from Danny for a full refund. It is not possible to say that the set has diminished in value, because Danny is willing to buy it back at the original purchase price. The fact that the set now has fewer useable chips, but the same valuation means that each useable chip is worth incrementally more.
Rainman has made it clear that he does not intend to return the chips for a full refund, therefore he most likely feels that they are worth more (either $ or sentimentally) than his purchase price. This makes the devaluation argument further flawed.
I do agree that Danny needs to do something to make this Right, but clearly their is a high level of subjectivity in defining what that is.
ssanel54
Flush
I don't have any issue with you taking this public and maybe I'm underestimating how many incidents there have been besides this one. I am just making assumptions based on the number of transactions that he has done, and assuming that we would have heard about it before now if they were all bad....then again, Bill Cosby.
I do think that when any dispute is taken public, there is usually some additional motive to get the result that you were initially hoping for by adding public pressure. I don't have any issue with this technique however.
Damn, that's a pretty irrefutable argument right there. I'm back on board with the $250-350 range.
Chippy McChiperson
4 of a Kind
I also am not sure how objective this thread is, to be honest. You and Danny agreed to let the forum settle this, but you are actively in this thread trying to persuade people for a maximum refund, while Danny is sitting back not influencing people at all. Since you refuse to tell us what you think each chip's value is worth, I changed my vote to $250 based on the $4.21 per broken/heavily damaged chip and $1 per chip for the flea bitten ones, with an extra $25 thrown in because there is no option for $225, plus a potential loss in value for not having complete racks.
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RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
I don't have any issues with Danny outside of my chips getting damaged and him not making it right prior to posting publicly.
I even offered to buy him a beer after its all said and done. That offer still stands. I'm a pretty forgiving and easy going guy. But if you wrong me, I will flame you for it. I have a backbone. But I also move on after I've said my piece/peace.
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