Playing Jacks Preflop (1 Viewer)

[MichaelBubly]

I think this is a pretty well debated subject as JJ are notorious for being difficult to play well, but I'm going to post about it regardless.

Had an interesting spot in my $0.25/0.50 game this weekend that I've been thinking about for a while.

I'm in MP with JJ. Sitting with about $125 in my stack (Max buyin is $50).

UTG raises to $3. He raises probably 70% of his holdings and is currently the big stack with about $150 in his stack.

UTG+1 calls.

Hero 3-bets to $15. Our game is a mix of experienced and beginner poker players. We rarely play for stacks, but a $3 raise is likely to get 5-6 players to see a flop. 3-betting is rare in our game.

Folds to UTG who flats.

UTG+1 rips it in for $42. He is a casual player. Never gets too out of line.

I tank fold and UTG calls.

UTG has KK vs +1 AQs.

Been 2nd guessing my play here mainly because a lot of EP 3-bet calling ranges will likely play strongly against Jacks or have them crushed. My idea at the time was to try and isolate UTG and see a flop, expecting most hands that dominate me to 4 bet and I can gauge whether to call or fold pre-flop knowing I'm likely behind.

I don't know if I can really flat JJs though because going 5 ways to a flop seems like suicide, but a lot of reading on some other forums gave me the impression that 3-betting EP w/ Jacks should really mean I'm ready to commit to a large pot meaning calling a 4-bet more often then not. In a tournament I think I'm pretty happy to 3-bet large in that spot and hope to take it down pre-flop.

I don't hate my play here, but really has me questioning my decision making with Jacks as I seem to often overplay.

 

[detroitdad]

I would have probably played it similar to you based on the information of the players in the hand.

 

[JMC9389]

I would have done the same thing. When you get 4 bet shoved on, it's either a fold or five bet jam depending on the cast of characters.

In a cash game I lean more fold. In a tournament depending on stack sizes, I lean fold.

 

[Pippa]

Fold!!!!!the JJ

 

[MichaelBubly]

Fold!!!!!the JJ

But call J9 right?

To extrapolate more, should I size my 3 bet down and try to see more flops or keep it polar and be happy taking it down preflop on occassion?

 

[GetUrShineBox]

I like the play. If you don’t 3 bet and the flop is 257 rainbow you might lose a lot more than the extra $12 you raised.

 

[Pippa]

J9 it’s the best!!!!

 

[JMC9389]

I would have done the same thing. When you get 4 bet shoved on, it's either a fold or five bet jam depending on the cast of characters.

In a cash game I lean more fold. In a tournament depending on stack sizes, I lean fold.

Meant to say I lean jam in a tournament, definitely if short stacked. If you're up against KK and AQ and you don't hit your outs, so be it. Let the kings sweat hoping not to see an ace on the flop as they're certainly almost rejamming if you jam in a tournament setting.

But here, you're starting the hand 250 big blinds deep in a cash game and you just got four bet. Fold.

 

[BPTDirector]

As soon as more than one player has bet or raised you know your Jacks are trash either by a great draw or better big pair >1 seeing a good sized bet or raise I’m dropping that shit.

 

[AWenger]

I don't hate my play here, but really has me questioning my decision making with Jacks as I seem to often overplay.

As played, I would say you didn't overplay it. You got away from the hand, and saved $$.

I like mixing it up with pocket jacks, sometimes raising/re-raising to isolate, sometimes playing them like pocket 4s, and just calling pre-flop trying to set mine, and then can often easily fold if there are multiple overcards on the flop/turn in combination with continued aggression on flop/turn.

 

[DrStrange]

I am fine with Hero making the three-bet with jacks. Hero has position and what looks like a range advantage over the villains.

It's the limp, four-bet from UTG +1 "who never gets to out of line" that scares me. In a game where we rarely play for stacks and pretty much never see four-bet jams.

What kind of range do we give for that limp/four bet? AA, maybe KK. That's it.

What sort of range do we give to UTG who is calling the four bet-jam? AQo+, AJs(?), TT+ Is Hero excited about playing a side pot for $166 - ($83x2) And we what do we think UTG's calling range would be vs a 5-bet jam? Maybe AKo, AQs, QQ+?

Not my cup of tea. So much trouble brewing. Reward isn't worth the risk. Hero is often playing heads up vs the four-bet jam - risking $27 to win $126. Hero has to jam preflop to get that chance - on a bad day he is still a 1-4 dog getting even money, on a good day Hero is 55%/45% getting even money.

Jamming is painful. The main pot is barely -EV, maybe -$2. If the side pot happens, there are 13 ways to be a 20%/80% dog and 10 ways to be a 55%/45% favorite with an expected value of -$24. Sure, UTG folds a lot keeping Hero's losses to -$2 but when the side pot happens, Hero gets burned.

The $15 3-bet is a sunk cost. Folding has a zero EV. Not folding losses even more money.

Good fold -=- DrStrange

 

[Senzrock]

Interesting spot - I have a few thoughts:

UTG raises to $3. He raises probably 70% of his holdings and is currently the big stack

Given this observation, and the fact that a seemingly loose opening range is just being flatted, I think we have a mandatory 3bet here with JJ. Obviously you can mix in some tricky just calls but I like the aggressive line, and think this is appropriate in the majority of situations like this.

a lot of EP 3-bet calling ranges will likely play strongly against Jacks or have them crushed.

I actually think you are doing better here than you are concerned about. If we think about what hands villain flats here vs what hands villain either 4bets or folds, I think our range should be performing very well. I would assume that AA, KK and even QQ and AKs would often choose to 4bet, especially AA and KK. In fact it would be a mistake if they didn't, especially out of position with a decent amount of $ behind. So I would be taking a lot of AA/KK out of the opener's flat (now I know that he ended up having KK but we can't be results oriented - that was just a very strange way to play KK). I think we are actually up against a range that is composed of several pairs below JJ (many players would call any pair really here so 22-TT is not out of the question), as well as AK/AQ/AJs/ATs. The hands I expect us to be in bad shape against are squarely QQ and a few weirdly played AA.

questioning my decision making with Jacks as I seem to often overplay

In this specific example, no overplay at all but I do like your question about 3b sizing because it's a small but often overlooked question that can have huge implications for the hand in terms of stack to pot ratio. I think $15 is fine, but definitely on the larger side. In retrospect, we might want to be looking at $10-12 as our standing 3b sizing, which, btw allows us also to mix a few more hands into our 3b range here because it's not as painful to 3bet/fold if we needed to.

What kind of range do we give for that limp/four bet? AA, maybe KK. That's it.

As I mentioned above, for UTG, I actually take those two hands out of villains range here because villain should always be re-raising those hands out of position. Especially with a limper in between and likely being out of position vs two opponents. Just a bad play by UTG and I would trying to get into more pots with that player moving forward. For the UTG+1, I also just don't think that player is just calling AA/KK to the initial raise very often here sandwiched between several players here. I would often put a player like this on an AK/AQ type of hand along with smaller pairs than ours that are annoying to play post flop (TT/99/88/77).

Reward isn't worth the risk. Hero is often playing heads up vs the four-bet jam - risking $27 to win $126. Hero has to jam preflop to get that chance - on a bad day he is still a 1-4 dog getting even money, on a good day Hero is 55%/45% getting even money

Your math above actually shows us the opposite. The risk *is* worth the reward. Worst case scenario we are getting close to the correct odds to call and in the best case scenarios we are actually a favorite (and sometimes even a BIG favorite). This tells us it's a call every time.

Very interesting spot, we just have to keep trying to not be results oriented - villains played this spot very awkwardly here.

 

[MichaelBubly]

In this specific example, no overplay at all

I feel good about this. However, a few weeks ago I inadvertently got QQ to fold to my JJ with a value bet on a low flop and another large value bet on the turn. Felt good to not get stacked at the time, but I should have lost my shirt there. I believe I was trying to block a lot of available draws, but was shocked to see QQ there.

I would trying to get into more pots with that player moving forward.

Ironically, this is my co-host and very close friend! He got me into poker and him and I go toe to toe all the time. I got caught earlier in this game bluff jaming pocket 10s into his kings a little while before this and got bailed out when the river put a straight on the board.

Thanks for the thoughts here!

I am fine with Hero making the three-bet with jacks. Hero has position and what looks like a range advantage over the villains.

It's the limp, four-bet from UTG +1 "who never gets to out of line" that scares me. In a game where we rarely play for stacks and pretty much never see four-bet jams.

What kind of range do we give for that limp/four bet? AA, maybe KK. That's it.

What sort of range do we give to UTG who is calling the four bet-jam? AQo+, AJs(?), TT+ Is Hero excited about playing a side pot for $166 - ($83x2) And we what do we think UTG's calling range would be vs a 5-bet jam? Maybe AKo, AQs, QQ+?

Not my cup of tea. So much trouble brewing. Reward isn't worth the risk. Hero is often playing heads up vs the four-bet jam - risking $27 to win $126. Hero has to jam preflop to get that chance - on a bad day he is still a 1-4 dog getting even money, on a good day Hero is 55%/45% getting even money.

Jamming is painful. The main pot is barely -EV, maybe -$2. If the side pot happens, there are 13 ways to be a 20%/80% dog and 10 ways to be a 55%/45% favorite with an expected value of -$24. Sure, UTG folds a lot keeping Hero's losses to -$2 but when the side pot happens, Hero gets burned.

The $15 3-bet is a sunk cost. Folding has a zero EV. Not folding losses even more money.

Good fold -=- DrStrange

I appreciate the great insight!

 

[Senzrock]

a few weeks ago I inadvertently got QQ to fold to my JJ

Sounds like... one of them good problems!

 

[exalted]

Flatting is increasingly good as you get stronger postflop and also decent to play multiway where you're very ahead on low boards & can easily fold on KQx etc.
3bet is good when folks rarely fold to 3bet and you're sure they're calling with worse.
As you saw 3bet is less good vs players who play AK aggressively (e.g. 100bb AI preflop) or if they're capable of 4bet bluffing deep.

 

[JustinInMN]

UTG raises to $3. He raises probably 70% of his holdings and is currently the big stack with about $150 in his stack.

UTG+1 calls.

Hero 3-bets to $15. Our game is a mix of experienced and beginner poker players. We rarely play for stacks, but a $3 raise is likely to get 5-6 players to see a flop. 3-betting is rare in our game.

Given this read on UTG, I think 3-bet is mandatory, and given the intermediate flat, I think the sizing is right.

Folds to UTG who flats.

UTG+1 rips it in for $42. He is a casual player. Never gets too out of line.

I tank fold and UTG calls.

UTG has KK vs +1 AQs.

That was not the result I was expected. The flat-4-bet is almost never weakness as @DrStrange pointed out, though I am surprised +1 had a hand as weak as AQs here. (But upon further reflection, +1 probably feels he only has a fold or shove choice here given the pot size and if he has the same read that UTG is opening too often, attempting to isolate with AQs might be worth it if our hero will strand his $15 out there.) UTG opening and then flatting the 3-bet makes his range impossibly wide to read given it includes hands as strong as KK, he's probably got a lot of suited junk and unpaired junk in this range as well if he is opening 70% of his hands.

So I think I get hero's fold, even if my expectation given the action is +1 is going to usually be ahead of UTG, but that isn't the case here. I am just wondering where the line is for here. I think if hero had KK+ he's going to play for stacks. I wonder about QQ? That seems to be the tweener spot for me.

 

[JMC9389]

Given this read on UTG, I think 3-bet is mandatory, and given the intermediate flat, I think the sizing is right.



That was not the result I was expected. The flat-4-bet is almost never weakness as @DrStrange pointed out, though I am surprised +1 had a hand as weak as AQs here. (But upon further reflection, +1 probably feels he only has a fold or shove choice here given the pot size and if he has the same read that UTG is opening too often, attempting to isolate with AQs might be worth it if our hero will strand his $15 out there.) UTG opening and then flatting the 3-bet makes his range impossibly wide to read given it includes hands as strong as KK, he's probably got a lot of suited junk and unpaired junk in this range as well if he is opening 70% of his hands.

So I think I get hero's fold, even if my expectation given the action is +1 is going to usually be ahead of UTG, but that isn't the case here. I am just wondering where the line is for here. I think if hero had KK+ he's going to play for stacks. I wonder about QQ? That seems to be the tweener spot for me.

Yup. In my experience, I've only witnessed two cold four bets that weren't aces, kings, or ace king in my entire life. Even then, those two instances were in tournaments and one holding was AQ suited and went all in short stacked, and the other queens, also short stacked.

I just haven't seen a maniac type LAG show up with less. I guess I'm playing in the wrong games...

 

[MrCatPants]

Yup. In my experience, I've only witnessed two cold four bets that weren't aces, kings, or ace king in my entire life. Even then, those two instances were in tournaments and one holding was AQ suited and went all in short stacked, and the other queens, also short stacked.

I just haven't seen a maniac type LAG show up with less. I guess I'm playing in the wrong games...

Ditto. though, I've seen it with lesser pockets (e.g. 10 10 or 9 9) but in shorter stacked tourney play only.

 

[chippitydoodah]

J9 it’s the best!!!!

Jack Nine Baby