Player Conflict: As Host, WWYD?

Moxie Mike

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Tagging @detroitdad @DrStrange @CraigT78 @BGinGA for your hosting experience.

Synopsis: The Moxie Poker League is comprised of about 10 OG members and and 10-20 more local players that participate at least occasionally. Since play has moved online, we now have around 50 players on the list, some local to GR (new people not previously associated with the league) and some from PCF.

The Situation: Yesterday Player A, a Moxie OG introduced a friend of theirs to our online group. I approved his application at Player's A's sole recommendation. We'll call him 'Milo', because he is not a pug.

While Milo's FB picture looked vaguely familiar to me probably from local live play, I can't think of a single encounter I've had with him. I trust Player A and they said he's a 'nice guy' - however it's worth pointing out that Player A has been a fixture in the local poker scene for a decade+, is very well respected and in all likelihood has zero enemies. They also described Milo's playing style as 'aggressive'.

Milo played for the first time this evening. I was not in the game.

Enter Player B. Player B is also a Moxie OG who is a staple in all of our live and online games, including the non-nlhe games that are difficult to recruit players for. To date, Player B virtually never misses a game whether it's online or live. Player B is also well known and respected in the local poker scene and is probably responsible for recruiting more players to the league than anyone else.

The Problem: Player B does not like Milo and has stated on behalf of themself and another semi-regular player they won't play if Milo is in the game.

Player B has described Milo as 'an asshole' who 'mocks players' and takes a long time to act because 'he's usually too busy typing'. Player B went on to say on behalf of several regulars, tonight's game 'was not fun'. He also lamented Milo's off-the-charts aggressive style, indicating that he'd 'gone all in 12 times in a 45 minute stretch'.

With no direct interactions with Milo, I have nothing to go on in terms of his suitability to the group. So I asked the opinion of a 3rd Moxie OG - a player who can only be described as the resident Moxie Curmudgeon. We'll call hey 'Sergei', because he's not Russian. Without elaborating as to why I ask asking his opinion, Sergei responded "I like him. We're friendly. I think he is OK".

TL;DR: A Moxie OG doesn't like the new guy and is refusing to play with them despite this person being generally liked by other Moxie OGs.

I've not been asked to take any action, although Player B is pretty important to the group and keeping them happy is worth some effort. I am of the strong suspicion that Milo's playing style is the primary driver of Player B's discontent. As host, WWYD?
 

CraigT78

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Where are you playing online? Poker Mavens server with multiple tables, or Poker Stars tournaments?
 

CraigT78

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While I await your reply, I will say this - I've had this issue come up before live. I have a few uber-aggressive players in my game that seem to have an unlimited bankroll. Some of my OG players don't like them - think they are bad for the game. I've had to tell them to deal with it, as it's part of poker. Play right and you'll take their money. Now if it is an issue with attitude, that I will address. I don't want an asshole at the table, and I am more than happy to address that.
 

CraigT78

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That's tough - it's online, players are going to be aggressive. But if he's talking shit on chat over and over, I would ask him to chill as he's not a regular and if he wishes to continue to scale the chat back. I would not bounce anyone for play style.
 

Josh Kifer

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Part of me wants to say, you have the issue, you can play.... Or not... It's your issue.

Another part is, if a guy's play is obviously ruining the game, that's the easier fix.

I'd say both plays have an argument. I would side more towards the "cut the player" side. This is chaos, cats and dogs living together. I'd rather keep the fun player and the game easy then complicate crap over a moral stance.
 

Moxie Mike

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Has your player with the problem ever had a problem with anyone else?

Good question. Yes they've been sensitive at times but not to where they've complained about anyone to me directly. This is the first time they've indicated they won't play as a result.
 

DrStrange

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I also have run into this class of problem. The host is in a tricky position. You don't want to give veto power over your invite list without a good cause. On the other hand, you have to be very mindful that your core regulars are worth keeping happy.

In general, I'll accommodate the players who don't want to play with a wild & crazy player when I host my tiniest of games. So on $20 buy-in night, I'll try to keep the wild ones from coming to the game. I might even disinvite them. I can appreciate how the regulars dislike someone betting $20 blind every hand. I think of it as free money, but not everyone is there for money. They want to have fun and that level of aggression isn't fun for them.

On higher stakes nights, the crusty regulars are on their own. I have had half the table walk out when the wild boys show up. Tough, the big stakes night is the big boys night. That is why I host a range of stakes. If the lunatic wants to bet $50 blind, fine. If his neighbor wants to play the whole hand blind. go for it. It will be fun.

On the other hand, if the core issue is the problem player is a jerk. Slows down the game. Insults the women. "That" guy - - - him I can counsel and if the problem persists, he goes home. There is a big difference between too aggressive vs bad for the game. But it isn't so easy to figure out when you aren't at the table. Just hearing third party complaints after the fact seems almost impossible to resolve.

I think the host is going to need to see this dynamic live before seeking a resolution. On-line no less. Yucky situation.

Good luck Solomon -=- DrStrange

PS Remember the goal is to have fun. If it isn't fun, don't do it.
 

Moxie Mike

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In general, I'll accommodate the players who don't want to play with a wild & crazy player when I host my tiniest of games. They want to have fun and that level of aggression isn't fun for them.

While I agree, unfortunately I limiting one individual's participation isn't an option.

The irony is that the core group is a pretty competitive bunch comprised of several players with 5 and 6 figure Hendon Mob profiles and Player B has not been one of the stronger performers through 4+ season of league play. Uber-aggros - while annoying in real time and difficult to deal with when they occasionally run good, are generally the easiest type of player to defeat.

On the other hand, if the core issue is the problem player is a jerk. Slows down the game. Insults the women. "That" guy - - - him I can counsel and if the problem persists, he goes home.

Honestly, I wish it were that easy since that problem has the simplest solution.

I think the host is going to need to see this dynamic live before seeking a resolution.

I'm going to take note of how Milo's participation affects attendance and morale before jumping to any conclusions. Thing is, another Moxie OG has a similar playing style but since they've been around since the beginning, no one complains.
 

WedgeRock

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Talk to Player B, let's call him Andrew, because it's not me. Tell him 2 players who you trust have vouched for him, and you are willing to give him a shot. (You can't boot a guy who you've never played against.). Ask him to play in at least two games with you and Milo.

Keep Milo on a short rope. Talk to other respected, long time players and get their opinions. Mostly check back with Andrew after games 1 and 2 and see if his opinion has changed.

Just my 2¢.
 

BGinGA

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While I await your reply, I will say this - I've had this issue come up before live. I have a few uber-aggressive players in my game that seem to have an unlimited bankroll. Some of my OG players don't like them - think they are bad for the game. I've had to tell them to deal with it, as it's part of poker. Play right and you'll take their money. Now if it is an issue with attitude, that I will address. I don't want an asshole at the table, and I am more than happy to address that.
Some good advice itt, but Craig pretty much summed it up as far as I'm concerned. Differing play styles are part of poker (deal with it, aka improve your game), but asshattery is not to be tolerated.

Mike, you're going to need to see first-hand any improper actions or offensive chat in order to 1) confirm there is a legitimate issue, and 2) take corrective action (whatever that might be).

But it's bad business to dictate how players should play so long as it is legal, or allow other players to influence your game's invite list based on people exhibiting playing styles they don't like (or probably more accurately, styles that they fail to adjust to properly). What's to stop the *next* guy from complaining about player OMC who plays too tight and spoils their wild and loose fun?

Imo, your complainer is trying to extort you by threatening to leave in order to get his way and stay in his comfort zone. I also don't care for him 'speaking for other concerned anonymous players' who apparently either can't speak for themselves or don't really have a problem. Fuck all that noise.

Besides, if we start barring players just for highly aggressive play styles, then poor @davin would never get to play anywhere.... and you'd be not far behind him on the way out. :cool
 

davin

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Some good advice itt, but Craig pretty much summed it up as far as I'm concerned. Differing play styles are part of poker (deal with it, aka improve your game), but asshattery is not to be tolerated.

Mike, you're going to need to see first-hand any improper actions or offensive chat in order to 1) confirm there is a legitimate issue, and 2) take corrective action (whatever that might be).

But it's bad business to dictate how players should play so long as it is legal, or allow other players to influence your game's invite list based on people exhibiting playing styles they don't like (or probably more accurately, styles that they fail to adjust to properly). What's to stop the *next* guy from complaining about player OMC who plays too tight and spoils their wild and loose fun?

Imo, your complainer is trying to extort you by threatening to leave in order to get his way and stay in his comfort zone. I also don't care for him 'speaking for other concerned anonymous players' who apparently either can't speak for themselves or don't really have a problem. Fuck all that noise.

Besides, if we start barring players just for highly aggressive play styles, then poor @davin would never get to play anywhere.... and you'd be not far behind him on the way out. :cool
Dave I swear you’re just as aggressive maybe more aggressive
 

BGinGA

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lol, no. Your raise-rate per orbit is easily 5 times mine, and you play at least 3x as many hands.

We'll compare notes next tourney at first break. You'll see....
 

davin

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lol, no. Your raise-rate per orbit is easily 5 times mine, and you play at least 3x as many hands.

We'll compare notes next tourney at first break. You'll see....
But your all in button gets tossed in way to many times lol but yes let’s compare. Shouldn’t we make Sunday’s KO game the prev remake of this pass Wednesday? That way Q2 doesn’t get screwed up
 

Anthony Martino

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Based on the OP it looks like the guy pitching a bitch is more concerned about the aggressive playstyle and doesn't like having to combat it, rather than any offensive stuff in chat.

That being said, tell the complainer you will monitor the new players actions the next game so you can see for yourself. If the guy really is a keyboard warrior, hurling insults constantly, boot his ass, nobody needs that negativity in the game. But if he's just crazy aggressive (which I think is the case) then fuck the complainer, suck it up buttercup!
 

Eriks

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I wouldn’t uninvite someone because of their playing style but I can see it becoming a problem if the player is using an overly aggressive style just because the stakes don’t matter to them. My game is competetive but the main objective is fun and while it’s easy to win against a maniac it’s not much fun.
 

moose

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If this was live I might listen to an OG but FFS this is online. It's not like he has to sit there and smell some guys BO.

1. I think you can get someone who was at his table to request the hand history and you can review the chat
2. You can tell your OG that if he has a problem that he can turn off the chat.
3. Being slow? How can that be an actual problem online? When your time runs out you have to act.

Seriously how do you get pissed at somebody online?
 

Josh Kifer

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Some good advice itt, but Craig pretty much summed it up as far as I'm concerned. Differing play styles are part of poker (deal with it, aka improve your game), but asshattery is not to be tolerated.
I've had to have this talk with my game, when we added a guy who.... Well, he doesn't know how to play. We've taught him, but he just can't figure it out past actions. But he adores coming and being with "the guys". He's dead money, but dead money will win sometimes (rarely....)

There argument was "this would never happen in a casino"

And my argument was "what the fuck are you talking about, 7 of him at a table IS a casino"

Adapt and beat him. Appreciate he's having fun and wants to be there.
 

Moxie Mike

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Besides, if we start barring players just for highly aggressive play styles, then poor @davin would never get to play anywhere.... and you'd be not far behind him on the way out. :cool

Always hilarious to learn how you're perceived. Thanks for the insights Dave... but I think I'm too charming to ever get banned :)

I think you can get someone who was at his table to request the hand history and you can review the chat

This is a good idea. I don't know how many people played last night since the Stars software doesn't seem to want to track that anymore :( or who won but I'll see if I can find out.

I wouldn’t uninvite someone because of their playing style but I can see it becoming a problem if the player is using an overly aggressive style just because the stakes don’t matter to them. My game is competetive but the main objective is fun and while it’s easy to win against a maniac it’s not much fun.

This is apparently part of it... it's only a $25 game and according to Player B the money is immaterial at these stakes to Milo. We've all seen it a million times... players move down in stakes to blow off steam and play like a jackass. From what I understand about Milo's situation - he just has no where else to play since there's no live options available.

The bottom line is that while no one likes playing with a maniac, as long as he's not verbally abusive I'm going to let him play. And if it turns out that he just likes to banter... well I'm your huckleberry. I'll draw fire in that arena any day :)
 

CraigT78

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Fold.
Fold.
Fold.
Fold.
Limp, fold.
Fold.
Limp, fold.
Fold.
Fold.
Fold.
Fold.
Limp, fold.
Fold.
Limp, re-raise, all in. Weeeeeeeeeee!
Uh huh. Except you forgot the other two.

Limp, re-raise, all in. FUCK, you had it that time.
Limp, re-raise, all in. You God damn luckbox. Two outs, seriously, runner runner??
 

David O

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Some good advice itt, but Craig pretty much summed it up as far as I'm concerned. Differing play styles are part of poker (deal with it, aka improve your game), but asshattery is not to be tolerated.

Mike, you're going to need to see first-hand any improper actions or offensive chat in order to 1) confirm there is a legitimate issue, and 2) take corrective action (whatever that might be).

But it's bad business to dictate how players should play so long as it is legal, or allow other players to influence your game's invite list based on people exhibiting playing styles they don't like (or probably more accurately, styles that they fail to adjust to properly). What's to stop the *next* guy from complaining about player OMC who plays too tight and spoils their wild and loose fun?

Imo, your complainer is trying to extort you by threatening to leave in order to get his way and stay in his comfort zone. I also don't care for him 'speaking for other concerned anonymous players' who apparently either can't speak for themselves or don't really have a problem. Fuck all that noise.

Besides, if we start barring players just for highly aggressive play styles, then poor @davin would never get to play anywhere.... and you'd be not far behind him on the way out. :cool
Plus 1 for this and for Craig. Just like in Vegas. If you do not like the players at the table then get up and find another table. It is not good to start telling your players how they should play. I for one love those players that go all in that much. if player B is smart and a good player he will take advantage of it. If it tilts him then he will perform poorly and blame the other player and you.
 

PlayerADK

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Based on the OP it looks like the guy pitching a bitch is more concerned about the aggressive playstyle and doesn't like having to combat it, rather than any offensive stuff in chat.

That being said, tell the complainer you will monitor the new players actions the next game so you can see for yourself. If the guy really is a keyboard warrior, hurling insults constantly, boot his ass, nobody needs that negativity in the game. But if he's just crazy aggressive (which I think is the case) then fuck the complainer, suck it up buttercup!
I'd agree with this mostly.

They're upset over style of play, I'd keep an eye on chat, query other players, make player B suck it up and take advantage of the crazy player :p
 

trigs

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Why do I always hear people complaining about other players being too aggressive? 1) they can play however they want, it's their option. 2) you will have the chance more often to win their money. So what if you have to play a little tighter or something like that? I don't get it.

Everyone who plays "too aggressive", you all have an open invite to all my future games. Please straddle, blind raise, and shove to your heart's content.
 
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