Play this one with me. (1 Viewer)

[shorticus]

The following play happened recently and Im curious to see everyone’s thoughts. I’ll post each play hand by hand and tell me what you guys think.

1/3 NLHE

I’ve just straddled and play has returned to me. I look down at


2 callers at this point. Middle Position guy has been a calling station for the most part all day and late position guy has been chatting all afternoon about how he busted out after two hands in the WSOP. Chasing a little bit, but showing some mediocre hands.

Our rep is tight aggressive, and the money is as follows:

Us: $108
MP: $275 (roughly)
LP: $600 give or take a little

Action is to you...

Be back in an hour to continue the story.

 

[timinater]

I assume straddle to $6?

Your stack is going to be awkward no matter what, so you'll be able to safely jam the flop no matter your sizing here. Lets make it like $35 and you'll be able to jam ~70 into 80 or 120 on any non A, non K flops.

 

[Frogzilla]

Jam it in there

 

[shorticus]

I didnt feel the need to Jam, but apparently I should have considered it. I raise to $15. Both guys call.

Flop is



Action is to us. What say you here? See you in another hour.

 

[Highli99]

Given your short stack bet. $20 or so.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Definitely should have raised bigger preflop, I like $25 to $30.

As played we need to start building this pot up but we have a hammer lock on it. The only real draw is an open ended straight with 3-5 and that seems unlikely. Some gutter balls with an over card A3 and A5. If we are very lucky we have set over set. If that is the case the money all gets in eventually.

Let’s bet $20 and hope we get a call.

 

[timinater]

Definitely should have raised bigger preflop, I like $25 to $30.

As played we need to start building this pot up but we have a hammer lock on it. The only real draw is an open ended straight with 3-5 and that seems unlikely. Some gutter balls with an over card A3 and A5. If we are very lucky we have set over set. If that is the case the money all gets in eventually.

Let’s bet $20 and hope we get a call.

I like that, and if you have a read that either villain might stab, a check raise isn't the worst way to get your stack in either.

 

[shorticus]

So here, I check.

Here’s why: At this point, I feel like I’m way ahead of anyone. My thought is that I’ll let someone take a stab at the pot and make some money. I know I’m playing conservative here, but I’m thinking someone will take a stab.

I check, calling station checks, and Mr. World Series bets 20.

Action back to us...

 

[Rhodeman77]

I just call. There is nothing he can have short of a set that can take any pressure. Give him a chance on the turn to continue his story.

 

[Legend5555]

I'd jam pre. There is already $22 out there (including your straddle), which is 20% of your stack. Winning it or getting called are both good results. A reasonable opening raise would need to be nearly $30. If you are going to do that, you might as well jam. Plus there are a lot of bad flops for QQ. When you straddle here, you have reduced your effective stack size to 18bb. So you are in clear jamming territory with that stack size, 2 limpers, and QQ.

As played, check this flop. It's SUPER dry and your small raise pre has under repped your hand. I'd look to check/call the flop and and check/jam turn.

Side note: why are you playing so short? And why are you straddling (and thus further reducing your effective stack size) when you are so short?

 

[shorticus]

@Legend5555 i wasn’t playing short at first. I bought in for $100 and was fairly even with everyone else when the table started. Suddenly, WSOP guy buys in for probably $700 and is the big stack at the table. I was upset about this because that’s not supposed to be allowed according to the casino rules. However, there was no comment about it. He lost a fairly decent pot earlier in the evening but other than that was playing average. The buy-in thing is a completely different story cause there was another guy at the table who then buys in shortly after at $800.

 

[shorticus]

Anyways, back to the story....

You all seem to be on pace with me here. I just call. MP guy calls as well.

Turn card is


Action is to us...

 

[Legend5555]

Anyways, back to the story....

You all seem to be on pace with me here. I just call. MP guy calls as well.

Turn card is


Action is to us...

Jam. Look, there is now $100 in the pot after rake is taken, you only have $73 left. If someone has A3 or 36, oh well. At least that means they are playing terribly. Any reasonable bet by either of them is basically all in for you no matter what, they have both shown interest, the pot is huge, and your bet is less than the size of the pot. I don't think they are folding many hands they were willing to call flop with when you jam for less than the pot. And letting them check behind sucks. Get that value!

I can also see check/jamming as an equally viable option.

 

[Rhodeman77]

A $1/3 game where the average buy-in is $100 is a horrible game! 33 bind blinds is a very short game made even shorter by a straddle. Most skill is taken out of game this short. All decisions are pretty much made preflop or flop.

As played I jam here. No reason to give a possible free card that could beat you or worse, kill any chance of getting called on the river because they missed.

 

[Legend5555]

@Legend5555 i wasn’t playing short at first. I bought in for $100 and was fairly even with everyone else when the table started. Suddenly, WSOP guy buys in for probably $700 and is the big stack at the table. I was upset about this because that’s not supposed to be allowed according to the casino rules. However, there was no comment about it. He lost a fairly decent pot earlier in the evening but other than that was playing average. The buy-in thing is a completely different story cause there was another guy at the table who then buys in shortly after at $800.

What do you mean you weren't playing short at first? You said you bought in for 100, just 33bb. That's very short. Were up to more at some point? If everyone else is also very short, then I can see this being okay. But once you have players in there with stacks bigger than you, and especially if you think they are playing loosey goosey, then you need to have a bigger stack to win bigger pots. Imagine you have $300+ in this spot. You could potentially win a monster pot as you could have raised more pre and likely still gotten the calls.

I get that you are asking for advice as played. And as you see I have given that to you. But I don't think playing this short is almost ever a good idea unless you can't afford to play deeper, or aren't comfortable playing deeper. Cash games are about getting value and winning big pots with big hands, and you can't do that playing on a short stack. And straddling UTG with this short a stack is basically a total disaster every time; all you are doing is reducing stack sizes. Actually, I think straddling under the gun is generally bad unless the entire table agrees to do it and multiple players are 200+bb deep.

 

[shorticus]

I check here. I get a raise from the calling station and a re-raise from Mr. WSOP which forces me all in (I was going to check-raise all in here anyway), but there's a difference between pushing all in an someone putting you all in.

River is a

Showdown is
Calling Station:
Mr. WSOP:

Live and you learn, I guess. I feel like I played the hand fine. I felt like I knew where I was the entire time. Knew I was ahead even on the turn. Honestly, I wouldn't have expected to see someone turn over the hand Mr. WSOP was playing.

 

[shorticus]

Jam. Look, there is now $100 in the pot after rake is taken, you only have $73 left. If someone has A3 or 36, oh well. At least that means they are playing terribly. Any reasonable bet by either of them is basically all in for you no matter what, they have both shown interest, the pot is huge, and your bet is less than the size of the pot. I don't think they are folding many hands they were willing to call flop with when you jam for less than the pot. And letting them check behind sucks. Get that value!

I can also see check/jamming as an equally viable option.

I agree with you here, and I don't think jamming is a bad play here. I just felt like I was well ahead of everyone. Honestly, I didn't expect anyone to hit any piece of that flop, and even if they had hit it, they were behind badly and was going to trick off a lot of money to me. The play in my mind was to let them be aggressive one more time and hit them hard.

 

[shorticus]

Honest opinions on the way the hand played out? I'm open to constructive criticism here because, I've been playing this out in my head since last night which is what lead me to posting this message in the forum.

Should I have gotten more aggressive early, did I play the hand right, did I completely misplay the hand (I don't think so)? This is one of those hands that stick with me.

I'm roughly 84% after the turn card falls so I don't feel like I played this hand wrong. In your opinion, is this just a bad beat and I need to live with it, or do I need to re-evaluate how I played? Just curious to everyone's thoughts.

 

[timinater]

Random thoughts:

• NL rewards aggression. You took a passive line postflop and got drawn out on.
• I like a much bigger raise pre to setup the easy jam on the flop. You can get worse pairs and two pair hands to pay you off, not to mention worse sets.
• Sometimes you won't get action. Sometimes no action will be max value in the hand.
• $15 is a small open in 1/3, doubly so in a straddled pot.

 

[Frogzilla]

Was getting tough to read because having to scroll through posts to remember suits and calculate pot size. I took the liberty to summarize.

We have UTG/straddle in a single raise pot pre vs HJ & BU who both limp called. Effective stacks $93

Flop ($49):


I would be cbetting small my entire range on this dry of a flop to capitalize on range advantage. Top set is a perfect hand to trap and we block the calling ranges hard so most of the time we won’t get any action, but the strategy is what it is and can’t have a sound trap strat unless you check weak hands also.
I bet $15 as I would do with every hand I have in this spot.

Turn went x x 20 c c
Turn ($109)

After check-calling flop, I would keep repping same floaty hand. Check turn. We still have both villains’ range absolutely crushed.

OP: Turn went check and then you didn’t specify the bet sizes which kind of matter. I get that it put you all in, but it’s not heads up. Villain reraising to $100 vs $300 are different ranges even though the action to you is the same.

I think it’s a call vs 2 opponents, we are up against A3 quite a bit but also some 2p combos and the pair + open-ender type hands. We would much rather there be more natural bluffs like a flush draw out there, but the pot odds are incredible (3.5:1) only need 22% equity. Even against worst case (HJ 2p BU A3, HJ blocks our boat outs) we have 16%. Pretty easy call I think.

 

[Legend5555]

My advice... don't get cute with a short stack. Play your big hands hard and if you get no action, you get no action. You don't want multiway action with big pairs; You want to get heads up and try to play for all the money as early in the hand as possible. I get that shoving pre and getting no action feels bad, but you also just win the $22 in the middle without the risk of someone hitting a hand on you. If you opponents are calling with deuces and 35 suite pre, then the game is excellent and you want to be deeper. Knowing that they will play stuff like that, and specifically given your stack size, I actually think just check/jamming the flop is now the best play because I think they would call you with any pocket pair 55-JJ. And likely the 35 suited would call you too given the size of the pot.

Most of the time in NLHE, especially at lower stakes, you just want to play your big hands fast. This is especially true when your stacks is either very short (under 50-60bb) or very large (200+bb). When short you just want to get it in as early as possible while you have the best hand. When super deep, you have to play fast with big hands (and deep this means strong made hands post flop) because you need to make the pot big to win the big stacks off other players. Slow playing makes more sense in medium depth situations where it's likely only going to take 2 streets of post flop betting to get all the money in. When it only takes one, or 3 streets, just start getting the money in.

 

[Legend5555]

I check here. I get a raise from the calling station and a re-raise from Mr. WSOP which forces me all in (I was going to check-raise all in here anyway), but there's a difference between pushing all in an someone putting you all in.

River is a

Showdown is
Calling Station:
Mr. WSOP:

Live and you learn, I guess. I feel like I played the hand fine. I felt like I knew where I was the entire time. Knew I was ahead even on the turn. Honestly, I wouldn't have expected to see someone turn over the hand Mr. WSOP was playing.

You still got all the money in way ahead. So I wouldn't beat yourself up too much.

 

[shorticus]

Thanks @Legend5555 appreciate your insight on both messages lol.

I appreciate all the feedback

 

[Changster]

I recommend you watching some Youtube videos and/or joining an online site like Upswing or CrushLivePoker.

 

[shorticus]

@Changster What is that?

 

[Moxie Mike]

I think you woke up with a little bit of fancy play syndrome here.

My experience in low stakes NL games is that betting your hand is the best long term path to profitability. Deceptive plays require a certain type of opponent in order to justify them... and those opponents aren't numerous at low stakes games.

Look we've all been there. We've flopped the nuts on a dry board with two opponents we don't want to lose either one of them. But think of it is this way, if you bet this flop and they both fold, you can make up for it by picking up a lot of small pots with c-bets later on in your session.

 

[shorticus]

Thanks @Moxie Mike i appreciate your insight.

 

[Riomaa]

You kind of let the entire hand play out on its own once you bet so little on the flop and especially after you don't c-bet the flop. With your pre-flop bet size, you could have jammed that flop and I wouldn't be surprised if both players called. I don't like giving my opponents that much control in a hand unless I have second or absolute nuts and I know they'll hang themselves with their own aggression. Even more so if they have me covered. So I'm betting hard pre-flop (at least $18) and jamming any flop that isn't scary. This more aggressive line gets value out of 3 3, 5 5, 3 5, A X, K X, and a rare Q X. All of which you have beat. Playing slower only gets extra value out of A 3 and 3 5 (and MAYBE 3 6 and 3 7 but people are rarely calling 3X bets with 2 gappers and 3 gappers even if suited) which can draw out on you. Not really worth that extra value.

 

[Thomacetti]

I was 100% on @Legend5555 POV

Don't slow play short stacked in a multi-handed pot

 

[Changster]

@Changster What is that?

Poker lessons/tutorials. I never tried CLP but heard it's good. One of the partners/owners plays in our game once in awhile when he's in town. I'm a fan of Upswing though.

I know you are thinking about this particular hand, but I think what would help you a lot is a better overall preflop strategy. What I really like about preflop strategy is so much can be learned away from the table. So basically have an overall baseline strategy and not just with what happened with this particular hand. I can tell you though of all strategies out there, there is exactly zero that raises to 2.5x in the straddle with two limpers ahead of you and you are super short stacked.

The preflop play is considered a mistake. Mistakes compound in NLHE as you go further down the decision tree. But since you’re playing just ~18bb in this hand it really doesn’t matter what happened too much post flop cuz you didn’t pay much for the mistake.

Checking or cbetting on flop - both lines are fine. For the rest of the hand... Say he didn’t suck out and you tripled up, would you feel you played correctly cuz you won? You probably wouldn’t think about the hand as hard right?

So IMO the better way to approach it is to review your overall preflop strategy since that is the first decision on the decision tree.