Phil Hellmuth Wins Record-Extending 17th World Series of Poker Bracelet (2 Viewers)

People can hate on Phil all they want but it's hard to argue that he's the tourney GOAT. And even though his behavior at the table is less than ideal, I can honestly say after reading his book that I understand and relate to him a lot and feel a bit sorry for him, as someone who has empathy for others. He's at least admitted his faults and made attempts to work on them, and that easily makes him a better man then many that criticize him.

Nothing but happy for Phil. What can't be ignored is even after poker has changed so much in the last several years, he still manages to win big tournaments. Anyone who doesn't find that impressive needs to check their own ego at the door.
 
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I like the guy ….he was really trying to be a poker ambassador when the rivers poker room opened up…… played at same table several times at inaugural rivers poker tournament,…not sure about the Bitcoin hat
 
I almost flattened Hellmuth in the Paris casino the morning before he won this. I turned around to leave and he was walking in and I bumped right into. He said “whoa buddy”.

I guess I’ll have to run into him every year now. I’m obviously his good luck charm.
 
JustinInMN said:
I might argue the only reason these two get away with it is because Hellmuth lowered the behavior bar in the first place.
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I don't find that fair at all. Helmuth just gets mad when he perceives lesser play beats him because he is passionate about the game. He doesn't purposely amd maliciously troll and degrade players for his amusement or to get an edge, he only relies on his skill to try to win.
 
JustinInMN said:
Hellmuth trolls and degrades players all the time. Come on.
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The only way, shape or form I see in that is when he loses a hand and feels he lost despite outplaying the person. I've never once seen him troll players maliciously at the table as a tactic to get an edge. There is a clear difference. Phil's a much better guy than the other 2 I mentioned. Phil has issues, he's not genuinely an asshole.
 
RagahRagah said:
The only way, shape or form I see in that is when he loses a hand and feels he lost despite outplaying the person. I've never once seen him troll players maliciously at the table as a tactic to get an edge. There is a clear difference. Phil's a much better guy than the other 2 I mentioned. Phil has issues, he's not genuinely an asshole.
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This is a bit of no true scotsman fallacy, eh? "Hes not GENUINELY an asshole, he just has issues..." we could say this about most playground bullies. Insecurities manifest in different ways. I understand what you're saying about him not doing it to give himself an edge, but he's still doing it for decades.
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
This is a bit of no true scotsman fallacy, eh? "Hes not GENUINELY an asshole, he just has issues..." we could say this about most playground bullies. Insecurities manifest in different ways. I understand what you're saying about him not doing it to give himself an edge, but he's still doing it for decades.
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Not a fallacy at all. The man does have issues, very detailed in his book. There is a very clear difference between acting out from frustration and being a calculating asshole. The difference between Phil and guys like Kassouf and Tony G are night and day. I'm honestly surprised at the lack of understanding here.

Have you had any real psychological issues in your life? They tend to not go away in many instances. He's made some strides but people have their demons and some never are entirely conquered.
 
RagahRagah said:
The only way, shape or form I see in that is when he loses a hand and feels he lost despite outplaying the person. I've never once seen him troll players maliciously at the table as a tactic to get an edge. There is a clear difference. Phil's a much better guy than the other 2 I mentioned. Phil has issues, he's not genuinely an asshole.
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Well that's where we differ. You think losing a hand excuses toxic behavior, I don't.
 
There's not a lack of understanding, there's a lack of agreeing with you lol. Have you read Tony G or Kassouf's book? I bet they'd bring up experiences and reasons why they act the way they do, our experiences in life shape how we act. You dont think insecurities lead to Tony acting the way he does?

Not saying I hate Phil or dont understand why hes a manbaby, hes the greatest tournament player ever, and he'd 100% not be invited to my homegame. I would absolutely rather play with Tony G, so maybe we just differ in what we'd be willing to put up with. Both annoying.
 
Plenty of professional sports players are assholes; it's certainly not unreasonable for someone to brand Phil as one.

That said, poker in cardrooms is not a youth sport. If someone is inspired by any professional sports figure to emulate their behavior, whether that be an asshole, angle-shoot, use dirty tactics, trash talk, etc., that is more of a reflection of them than whoever we decide to attribute their actions to.
 
Rieguy said:
Plenty of professional sports players are assholes; it's certainly not unreasonable for someone to brand Phil as one.

That said, poker in cardrooms is not a youth sport. If someone is inspired by any professional sports figure to emulate their behavior, whether that be an asshole, angle-shoot, use dirty tactics, trash talk, etc., that is more of a reflection of them than whoever we decide to attribute their actions to.
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Poker is a bit of a different animal because it's health depends on recreational players supplying the poker economy. The NFL doesn't care whether or not it's viewers play flag football. In fact, I would posit that football has surprisingly few participants for how popular it is as a spectator sport. (I may be projecting too, I never played a down of organized football and it's probably my favorite spectator sport right now.)

My issue with Hellmuth from the first post I made is his actions are bad for the poker economy, especially because he inspired imitators. These wannabe's are chasing people out of smaller games that could spend years providing for the economy, but his ego can't take a beat.
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
There's not a lack of understanding, there's a lack of agreeing with you lol. Have you read Tony G or Kassouf's book? I bet they'd bring up experiences and reasons why they act the way they do, our experiences in life shape how we act. You dont think insecurities lead to Tony acting the way he does?

Not saying I hate Phil or dont understand why hes a manbaby, hes the greatest tournament player ever, and he'd 100% not be invited to my homegame. I would absolutely rather play with Tony G, so maybe we just differ in what we'd be willing to put up with. Both annoying.
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There indeed is a lack of understanding.

Yes, I figure that. Again, the difference is one man emotionally reacting to loss and another is a man purposely calculating how he's going to be an asshole to jar people.

Very, very clear difference. Phil doesn't mean to act toxic. People like Tony do exactly that. I'm really not making excuses for Phil's behavior, just saying the idea it "couldn't happen to a nicer guy" isn't true in this case. Phil all day over the other guys mentioned. Will is a cheat as well, anyway.
 
RagahRagah said:
There indeed is a lack of understanding.

Yes, I figure that. Again, the difference is one man emotionally reacting to loss and another is a man purposely calculating how he's going to be an asshole to jar people.

Very, very clear difference. Phil doesn't mean to act toxic. People like Tony do exactly that. I'm really not making excuses for Phil's behavior, just saying the idea it "couldn't happen to a nicer guy" isn't true in this case. Phil all day over the other guys mentioned. Will is a cheat as well, anyway.
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Okay, let's boil it down. So if someone is emotionally reacting to something, they can't be considered an asshole? My replies all stem from you saying if someone is emotionally reacting to something, they aren't genuinely an asshole.

"Phil has issues, he's not genuinely an asshole."

We can agree to disagree. Yes there's a difference, but it still makes him a "genuine" asshole. I don't care what book you've read, we all know assholes who are assholes because they can't control their emotions. Most assholes have issues, that's why they're assholes. I've met my quota for typing "assholes" for the next 3 months.

Cheers to Hellmuth's bracelet.
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Okay, let's boil it down. So if someone is emotionally reacting to something, they can't be considered an asshole? My replies all stem from you saying if someone is emotionally reacting to something, they aren't genuinely an asshole.

"Phil has issues, he's not genuinely an asshole."

We can agree to disagree. Yes there's a difference, but it still makes him a "genuine" asshole. I don't care what book you've read, we all know assholes who are assholes because they can't control their emotions. Most assholes have issues, that's why they're assholes. I've met my quota for typing "assholes" for the next 3 months.

Cheers to Hellmuth's bracelet.
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That's not what I'm saying. But indeed, I believe being an asshole comes down to intention. Assholes aren't people who have "emotional issues," assholes are people who knowingly and purposefully treat others like garbage. If you think Helmuth is the worst then you haven't dealt with real assholes. There's some on this very forum. Buuuuut I better be quiet about that otherwise some of them might report me for saying it again because they can't handle themselves like men.

Either way, all I said was that the idea that there isn't a bigger asshole this could have happened to was woefully incorrect.
 
RagahRagah said:
That's not what I'm saying. But indeed, I believe being an asshole comes down to intention. Assholes aren't people who have "emotional issues," assholes are people who knowingly and purposefully treat others like garbage. If you think Helmuth is the worst then you haven't dealt with real assholes. There's some on this very forum. Buuuuut I better be quiet about that otherwise some of them might report me for saying it again because they can't handle themselves like men.

Either way, all I said was that the idea that there isn't a bigger asshole this could have happened to was woefully incorrect.
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What you are saying is that @NotRealNameNoSir and myself are being unfair judging Hellmuth's sore losing behavior (to the point he berates players past the point of humiliation, mind you) as "bad for poker" and we should just accept it because he's great in other ways.

That's good enough for you, but those of us that can handle our beats like grown ups and see the damage of his influence at other levels feel differently.
 
JustinInMN said:
What you are saying is that @NotRealNameNoSir and myself are being unfair judging Hellmuth's sore losing behavior (to the point he berates players past the point of humiliation, mind you) as "bad for poker" and we should just accept it because he's great in other ways.

That's good enough for you, but those of us that can handle our beats like grown ups and see the damage of his influence at other levels feel differently.
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I cannot understand how people go for continuous strawman arguments over and over again despite explanation of the position.

I'm not saying it is good for poker. Of course not. Nowhere did I suggest that.

I'm explaining the simple difference between people like Phil who act out of emotion from losing a hand and people like Tony G who actually purposely antagonize people, and it's a simple distinction. But Phil, from what I can see, gets all the judgment for being "bad for poker" but the actual malicious assholes of the game don't seem to nearly enough, in my opinion.

The suggestion was that Phil was put in the "couldn't happen to a nicer guy" category and I simply stated there are worse than him. Not sure how many times I have to say it. Stop looking for a strawman, I was perfectly clear.

"So you're saying..." No. I'm simply saying what was written in the last paragraph. Stahp.
 
RagahRagah said:
I'm honestly surprised at the lack of understanding here.
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RagahRagah said:
cannot understand how people go for continuous strawman arguments over and over again despite explanation of the position.
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You are always the expert while everyone else doesn’t understand. Your level of understanding is far superior to all others.

No wonder you’re a Hellmuth fanboi.
 
RagahRagah said:
I'm not saying it is good for poker. Of course not. Nowhere did I suggest that.
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Oh okay, good deal then :).

(Though you did take exception to my suggestion that Hellmuth opened the door to normalizing the berating behavior, hence my assumption you disagreed.)

RagahRagah said:
The suggestion was that Phil was put in the "couldn't happen to a nicer guy" category and I simply stated there are worse than him. Not sure how many times I have to say it. Stop looking for a strawman, I was perfectly clear.
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Ah, so the whole point was if Phil isn't this single-worst person in the poker world (which I didn't exactly say either, I just said he opened the door to behavior that is obviously bad for the game), there's no point in criticism. Okay then.
 
JustinInMN said:
Oh okay, good deal then :).

(Though you did take exception to my suggestion that Hellmuth opened the door to normalizing the berating behavior, hence my assumption you disagreed.)


Ah, so the whole point was if Phil isn't this single-worst person in the poker world (which I didn't exactly say either, I just said he opened the door to behavior that is obviously bad for the game), there's no point in criticism. Okay then.
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Lol no, the whole point was there were far worse people in the game than Phil for something bad to happen to, lol.
 
upNdown said:
“ICM is for poor people” seems to be a catch phrase at this year’s WSOP - a lot of these guys are only interested in bracelets.

Hellmuth does so many things that seem unprofitable - have you watched how he plays a short stack in no limit games? Like he hasn’t even noticed his stack size. He won’t hesitate to limp-fold or even minraise-fold with a sub 10bb stack. Seems so contrary to how most of us approach it. In fact the article says he was down to two bigs at one point in this tournament.
But how do you argue with his results?
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he was down 19 to 1 against Dnegs in that one heads up Dnegs had 95k and he had 5 and came back and won is he the best hold em player ever no but I would take him in a big tourney field almost over anyone but at super high rollers I would never take him its all different not every poker tourney is the same and Cash forget about it LOL
 
JustinInMN said:
Phil Hellmuth may have an exceptional tournament record, but he cannot change that his approach to the game and his demeanor have been absolute poison to the poker culture. Berating fish is one of the worst EV plays there is and he made that mainstream and worse inspired a legion of followers to cardrooms and home games everywhere that think this should be acceptable behavior. Not only is it bad manners, it's bad business, but when Hellmuth succeeds, there's cover for this trash. As a result of this "inspiration" untold numbers of players that would have been long term donors have been run out of the hobby.

Congratulate him if you must, but I just see the glorification of an ugly behavior that is bad for the game.
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love him or hate him he is basically the LeBron of Poker besides Doyle , Dnegs & Ivey you can't really say anyone else has done more for the game again even if you hate the dude you got to respect him he has done alot for the game of poker
 
JustinInMN said:
It's not the GTO homogenized pros he's chasing away. Those types are more likely to put up with his antics. It's the rec-players that could spend their disposable income on the game but have better things to do if being berated is part of the culture.
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you know how many rec players playing in the WSOP would love to be at the table with Phil Hellmuth I bet 90% of them just to say they played at a table with one of the Goats I know I would and prob would never happen but imagine any Rec who has busted him out of a tourney LOL that would be worth it for me to just say you busted Phil Hellmuth
 
People saying Hellmuth is bad for Poker are people who thought Mayweather was bad for boxing or Conor was bad for the UFC when love them or hate them you tune in because of them
 

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