PGI Ceramics vs. Game On Ceramics

jbutler

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I've always loved Chipcos, but never got around to making a set before they went under, so I was glad to see Game On continue the tradition and glad to see PGI pick up a lot of their equipment. PGI does have other blanks, but I limited my below comments to their Chipco-like blank.

I have been waiting to compare samples from both places before deciding who to order from and now that we have both the PCF tourney chips from PGI and the Nine Dragons chips from Game On, we can do a side-by-side of recent "Chipco-like" products from both companies.

Here's a side-by-side of the orange chip from each set (PGI on left; Game On on right; click through and expand to see full size of the amazing high quality iphone pic):

dn2fY1b.jpg


- They both handle similarly. The texture is a bit heavier on the Game On chip which causes stacks to be slightly more stable, but the PGI chip stacks are not sliding all over the place by any means. I prefer the handling of the PGI chips by a small margin. The less harsh texture makes them easier to shuffle and gives up very little in the way of stack stability.

- The print quality is also pretty close, though the Game On chip is bit sharper to my eye.

- The printing technique appears to be slightly different. The PGI chip has an obvious gap between the printed element and the edge of the chip whereas the Game On chip appears to either: (a) push the printed element fully to the edge of the chip providing no gap; or (b) print directly onto the blank.

- The cost (as I understand; please correct me if I'm wrong) is 58 cents each through PGI and 60 cents each (70 cents if aligned) from Game On with no minimum required through PGI and a minimum of 100 per denom through Game On.

Anyone who has handled the chips or scrutinized the above photo have any further thoughts?
 

jbutler

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better pic lifted from the Nine Dragons thread showing the print differences:

pcf-nine-dragon-chips-jpg.11954
 

Mental Nomad

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It would be nice to add to the comparison a PGI chip which has an element that wraps the edge - not to compare alignment quality, but to make obvious any differences in print margins.
 

mipevi

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Are the edges more rounded on the PGI (Chipco) blanks, kinda looks that way from the pic..?
 

Tommy

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I'll add that the GOCC 9 Dragons chips have a sharper edge. I can feel the difference. I'm not picking one over the other as they both feel good and handle well.
The print quality also depends on the artwork.

I'll throw a sunfly cards mold ceramic chip into the mix too. I just realized that these DO NOT stand on edge and are out for my current project now. :(

sunfly-cards-mold.jpg
 

mipevi

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yeah they are a bit. likely another factor in easier shuffling.
Yes, along with the fact that the texture on GOCC is closer to the edge and will make earlier contact when shuffling... I am really digging the look of GOCC though.
 

courage

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Appreciate the comparison thread, Jack. Really love the look of the gocc if quality of 9 Dragons can be assured for all orders. Prolly what I'll recommend for Christine's Lucky Star set.
 

jbutler

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Appreciate the comparison thread, Jack. Really love the look of the gocc if quality of 9 Dragons can be assured for all orders. Prolly what I'll recommend for Christine's Lucky Star set.

I think the one variable that isn't addressed above is customer service. I know GOCC was a bit behind in producing the Nine Dragons set and the misprint of the T1K denom color, but they were very responsive at every step. PGI has also had various issues, but also seems to have resolved most that I can recall to the satisfaction of the customer. Probably a wash honestly.
 

Psypher1000

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For my money, I favor PGI just slightly. Here's why...

Blank shape - I prefer the *slighty* rounded edges of PGI's blanks better than GOCC.

Web Presence - I can find ways to find pics of PGI sets or purchase them. I don't fnd GOCC as easily accessible via web. This is a big deal to me.

Interactivity with the chipping community - I simply see PGI engaging with the community more on the various chip boards than I do GOCC.

There's one or two other reasons I prefer PGI, but those are the main ones. That's not to say GOCC is a bea company - they aren't!! If I *have* to choose, though, I go PGI.

For what it's worth - I prefer the sharpness of GOCC's dye jobs *just sligjtly* more than PGI. It's close, though.
 

courage

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Good points, psypher but my take so far:

blanks: I need to wait until I have my 9 Dragons samples in hand to compare shuffling, but I like the colors and print quality of GOCC better so far.

web presence: I wish both had more or up to date info, but it doesn't matter as much to me as long as email response is helpful and prompt.

interactivity with chippers: I don't see either company engaging us here very much. I hardly ever go to the other sites.
 

jbutler

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Web Presence - I can find ways to find pics of PGI sets or purchase them. I don't fnd GOCC as easily accessible via web. This is a big deal to me.

Interactivity with the chipping community - I simply see PGI engaging with the community more on the various chip boards than I do GOCC.

web presence: I wish both had more or up to date info, but it doesn't matter as much to me as long as email response is helpful and prompt.

interactivity with chippers: I don't see either company engaging us here very much. I hardly ever go to the other sites.

agreed with courage's comments for the most part.

re: web presence, is it even possible to buy PGI products online? last i recall, you had to email Joe at an aol address to place an order which seems archaically insane to me. for the most part, it's the same with GOCC so far as i know. honestly i would have already bought a TON more from both companies if i could just go to their sites, select stuff i want, and paypal.

re: interactivity, i don't see either of them here much. i think GOCC was involved more recently, but not enough to make a big impression.
 

manamongkids

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honestly i would have already bought a TON more from both companies if i could just go to their sites, select stuff i want, and paypal.


THISSSSSSSSSS

This is the reason we all end up on Amazon and eBay so often. Its easy to use. I know comparing a small scale company to eBay or Amazon is insane but a lot of smaller sites/companies have usable Websites, ie. OldWestPokerSupplies, very easy to use.
 

Psypher1000

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re: web presence, is it even possible to buy PGI products online?

Yes. Some you can buy directly through their website (e.g., custom chips, and I think trays and other such items); others I could only find at pokerchiplounge.com (including the 8v's, the EPT-look-alike "Arrow" line, and the new Vault product). Granted, you can't get PCF/CT member pricing via those portals, but at least product is available.

last i recall, you had to email Joe at an aol address to place an order which seems archaically insane to me. for the most part, it's the same with GOCC so far as i know. honestly i would have already bought a TON more from both companies if i could just go to their sites, select stuff i want, and paypal.

On that note, I'm not sure of a single factory-direct seller that I would say has a phenomenal website for consumers (PGI, GOCC, Matsui, GPI, etc, all have fine commercial sites, but that's not what I'm after). What I mean by that is not letting you see product that isn't available any longer, showing you all product that IS available, and/or doesn't look like it was built on the GeoCities platform. Most resellers fall into this same category of outdated/not-user-friendly web presence, including Apache. When I was first looking for chips, I flipped through Apache's website more than any, only to find messages similar to "these chips no longer available". *sigh* That amounts to nothing but a tease. Even CPC makes you guess price points on some of their more extravagant spot patterns.

I *think* pokerchiplounge.com is a PGI site, but maybe I'm wrong on that? Their site's pretty good, as is OWPS (in fact, OWPS might be the best I've seen for consumers so far). The site that does Nevada Jack's product isn't awful, either. As far as Palm Gaming vs. GOCC goes, though...as a consumer, I'd give PGI's web presence a slight nod.

As for PCF/CT pricing goes, I have no problems with emailing someone directly for special pricing, although I absolutely acknowledge that an AOL email addy begs for an update.

re: interactivity, i don't see either of them here much. i think GOCC was involved more recently, but not enough to make a big impression.

Minus a busy period for Joe recently, I've seen him post more on chip-related boards than I have GOCC in the past 6 months or so. That's not to say that Joe makes daily posts, simply that I see him post a little more.

I again want to stress that I'm not calling any of these companies or individuals out on their customer service or product quality - every chip company I've worked with so far, ranging from simple sample sets up to four-figure purchases, has been amazing to deal with via email. And having member pricing available is *awesome*. All of them have done something in the past six months to earn my respect, ranging from member sales to charity chip pricing to giveaways, etc. I will, however, call them out for lackluster general consumer-facing websites, as many of them need updated.

And when it comes to PGI vs. GOCC, I'm admittedly splitting some relatively fine hairs in order to choose. Both ultimately offer a quality product at a reasonable price to us chippers.
 

spikeithard

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I really like the outcome of the PGI ceramics I received.. I was a little surprised by the slightly rounded edges though but its nota big deal. Overall I would recommend them

Sent using tapatalk!
 

jbutler

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Yes. Some you can buy directly through their website (e.g., custom chips, and I think trays and other such items); others I could only find at pokerchiplounge.com (including the 8v's, the EPT-look-alike "Arrow" line, and the new Vault product). Granted, you can't get PCF/CT member pricing via those portals, but at least product is available.

On that note, I'm not sure of a single factory-direct seller that I would say has a phenomenal website for consumers (PGI, GOCC, Matsui, GPI, etc, all have fine commercial sites, but that's not what I'm after). What I mean by that is not letting you see product that isn't available any longer, showing you all product that IS available, and/or doesn't look like it was built on the GeoCities platform. Most resellers fall into this same category of outdated/not-user-friendly web presence, including Apache. When I was first looking for chips, I flipped through Apache's website more than any, only to find messages similar to "these chips no longer available". *sigh* That amounts to nothing but a tease. Even CPC makes you guess price points on some of their more extravagant spot patterns.

I *think* pokerchiplounge.com is a PGI site, but maybe I'm wrong on that? Their site's pretty good, as is OWPS (in fact, OWPS might be the best I've seen for consumers so far). The site that does Nevada Jack's product isn't awful, either. As far as Palm Gaming vs. GOCC goes, though...as a consumer, I'd give PGI's web presence a slight nod.

As for PCF/CT pricing goes, I have no problems with emailing someone directly for special pricing, although I absolutely acknowledge that an AOL email addy begs for an update.

Minus a busy period for Joe recently, I've seen him post more on chip-related boards than I have GOCC in the past 6 months or so. That's not to say that Joe makes daily posts, simply that I see him post a little more.

I again want to stress that I'm not calling any of these companies or individuals out on their customer service or product quality - every chip company I've worked with so far, ranging from simple sample sets up to four-figure purchases, has been amazing to deal with via email. And having member pricing available is *awesome*. All of them have done something in the past six months to earn my respect, ranging from member sales to charity chip pricing to giveaways, etc. I will, however, call them out for lackluster general consumer-facing websites, as many of them need updated.

And when it comes to PGI vs. GOCC, I'm admittedly splitting some relatively fine hairs in order to choose. Both ultimately offer a quality product at a reasonable price to us chippers.

so i can go to poker chip lounge and buy things that joe sells on internet forums and through email, but with an almost 100% markup? and that's an improvement? anyway, how is anyone supposed to know that poker chip lounge is PGI, especially when PGI has like 3 sites under the PGI name and they all suck balls? and the defense that "no one else does it right" isn't going to get anyone very far. no matter how much everyone else may suck, i'm not buying something from someone who also sucks.

(EDIT TO ADD: looks like Dave cleared up that PGI ≠ poker chip lounge)

joe might have a presence on other "chip-related boards" but his forum here has 3 threads and he has posted 11 times ever and exactly twice in the past 18 months. this against GOCC who just held a contest, awarded a prize to a member here, and did a GB with his winning design. not close between PGI and GOCC on this front imo.

EDIT AGAIN TO ADD: sorry, i didn't intend this thread to be a battle royale of the overall companies, but literally a one-to-one comparison (insofar as it is possible) of the two reasonably equivalent chips. i honestly couldn't give a fuck about the rest of this. if one produces a chip i like better than the other, i don't care if he sells chip racks made of frozen tears of my ancestors through a fetlife page that only takes bitcoin - i'm just going to order the chips i like better.
 

BGinGA

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I'll throw a sunfly cards mold ceramic chip into the mix too. I just realized that these DO NOT stand on edge and are out for my current project now. :(

Not trying to change your mind, but interested in why you feel this is such an important issue as to be a deal-breaker. I can't find any legitimate reason why a chip ~should~ stand on edge, other than for amusement.
 

jbutler

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Not trying to change your mind, but interested in why you feel this is such an important issue as to be a deal-breaker. I can't find any legitimate reason why a chip ~should~ stand on edge, other than for amusement.

agreed. i've only ever used this as a barometer of quality when judging the wear on a clay chip.
 

Tommy

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Not trying to change your mind, but interested in why you feel this is such an important issue as to be a deal-breaker. I can't find any legitimate reason why a chip ~should~ stand on edge, other than for amusement.

I like my chips to amuse me. :) They do seem more slippery vs the non-molded. I may see if the POLYINNO line is available for the project.
 

CdnBeerLover

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Received the samples today, and have a few comments based on a quick comparison of the ceramic samples I have

PGI
  • Royal Yak original set (Chipco produced, I believe). I looked at my $5 chips.
  • Royal Yak custom 5c (PGI produced)
  • PCF Tourney (PGI produced)

GOCC
  • Aviator Club
  • Nine Dragons

"Chipco"
  • Casino Aztar Roulettes from the Chiproom (I don't know if these were made by Chipco themselves, PGI, or GOCC)

Initial impressions when comparing them all
  • the GOCC chips are very similar in feel to the original Yaks, both with respect to the squareness of the edges and the "grippiness". The PCF chips are closer to the custom Yaks and Casino Aztars wih respect to grippiness, but have more rounded edges. I should have bought a 2nd sample set of the PCF chips to perform a proper shuffle comparison.
The Aviator clubs currently feel the slipperiest, but they also felt grippier than my Yaks when I first received them (dug up my post on CT). I did shuffle them daily for a while, and the initial texture does wear off a bit. The same thing occurred with a stack of 25c and $1 Yaks that I have also shuffled a lot, so that seems to be consistent. I would expect the "grippiness" of any of these ceramics to slowly disappear over time.​
  • I don't have a precision scale, so I can't compare weights easily. However, the Nine Dragon chips feel slightly lighter than the Aviator Clubs and Yaks when shuffling.
  • The GOCC chips look similar to the other Chipco's with the squarer edge. The PCF tourney chips look "thinner". I suspect that is because the shoulders of the chips are less square than any of the others, including the Yaks. My preference is for the GOCC chips.
  • The height of the GOCC chips are consistent with all of the chips except the custom Yaks. The custom 5c Yaks are slightly thicker than the others (closer to 3.38mm than 3.3mm on average).
  • The colours used on the Aviator Club chips are more muted than the others, so I was very pleased with the colours on the Nine Dragons chips. The blue and purple for the Nine Dragons looked very close at first, but it was in a room with poor lighting. They were much more distinguishable in good light, and overall the colours were fine.
  • The PCF tourney and Nine Dragon chips are the only full-bleed chips I have from these manufacturers, and I miss the white ring. On the flip side, slight centering issues that are noticeable on chips with the white ring may be less apparent on full bleed chips. I haven't noticed any centering issues on either of these.
It will be interesting to see how the edges on the full bleed chips hold up over time, especially for someone with a shuffling addiction (guilty as charged). I know that the $1 Yaks that I have shuffled have started to show some fading at the edges, but they have also been shuffled the most. The Aviator Clubs are a bit dirty due to use, but I don't believe there has been any fading. In fairness, they haven't been shuffled as much as the Yaks.​
  • The printing quality on the Yaks was fine, but the PCF tourney chips are not quite as crisp. The GOCC's are very well done.
  • The edge alignment on the GOCC's is excellent. I can't say one way or another what it's like for PGI, since I don't have any edge aligned from them to look at.
  • One of my Nine Dragon chips (5c) had a scuff mark on the graphics that could be felt, so the turtle graphic is marred. That was the only issue I found on any of the chips.
Overall, I really like the Nine Dragons, and it's pretty much a toss-up between PGI and GOCC. It all depends on what you prefer in the products. For myself, I prefer the feel of the GOCC's over the PCF tourney chips, so that would sway my decision. Right now, GOCC would get my business if I was in the market for a new ceramic set, but it's close.
 
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jbutler

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awesome comparison CDN, thanks.

i will have to shuffle a bit more to make a decision. it will also come down to design as well, i think, due to the noticeably smaller printed area on the PGI chips.
 

Mental Nomad

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Weights...

Five PGI PCF Tourney chips:
10.4, 10.4, 10.4, 10.4, 10.4
Together, 51.9. Average, 10.38 g.

Five GOCC Nine Dragons chips, same colors:
10.2, 10.2, 10.1/10.2, 10.2/10.3, 10.2 (two chips were oscillating between weights)
Together, 51.1. Average, 10.22 g.

245.1 for 24 Dragons (two sample sets, mixed colors), average 10.21 g.
244.8 for 24 orange $1k Dragons, average 10.20 g
245.6 for 24 blue $5k Dragons, average 10.23 g

So PGI chips run slightly heavier, roughly 10.4 versus 10.2 g for GOCC.
Final weight may vary, depending on ink.

Oh, checking white Nine Dragon Chips...
10.2 , 10.1
Together: 20.3, average 10.15 g.

It's entirely possible that the blanks are exactly 10.0 g, and the rest of the weight is from the dyes.
 

Poker Jedi

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Not a lot to add here I only have a few of the pcf chips but they are among my favorites as far as the ceramic samples I have so far. Have some sunfly samples enroute.

hope more people get in on the comparisons I'm loving this thread
 

palmgaming

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Not a lot to add here I only have a few of the pcf chips but they are among my favorites as far as the ceramic samples I have so far. Have some sunfly samples enroute.

hope more people get in on the comparisons I'm loving this thread
Trying to sneak on here- weve been busy so forgive me-- we are primarily a RESELLER manufacturer- were not a retail operation. With that said- if you email us at sales@palmimports.com we ALWAYS give board members wholesale pricing. MOST of what we do is custom so its hard to have a retail website for custom orders- they almost always involve our graphics dept and ineraction with us over the phone. i PROMISE we will get on here more often and run deals for you all. Joe PGI
 

RowdyRawhide

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Awesome thread jbutler. This is one of the reasons I ordered a couple Nine Dragons sample sets, other than the FAWESOME artwork. As in my sig line, I have over 2000 yaks in cash and tourney sets so I have a pretty good feel for what they are like and wanted to see what the GOCC chips are like. Some great info on this thread, and great to hear form Joe too.

Also most people are aware of the palmimports.com web address but the better one is:

www.palmgaming.us
 

Mr Tree

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Great thread idea and awesome content.

I have to say that the clarity of the print from GOCC and the saturation of color they achieve is outstanding. Their sample set almost looks like it has dimensions to it the lines are so crisp.
 

BGinGA

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I just wanted to point out that both the PCF and Nine Dragon chips were designed by p5woody. I think that both of those designs are among the best ceramics I've ever seen, and contain details that lend depth to the images. Excellent job(s), Steve!
 

jbutler

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just a quick update with thoughts after having spent a bit more time with the chips.

after probably two hours of aggregate shuffling of the Nine Dragons sample set (12 chips), the texture has smoothed down quite a bit. still tackier than the PGI chips, but definitely much more easily shuffle-able than they were on arrival. the sharper edges of the chip are still noticeable, of course, and contribute to the difference in feel you can tell when switching from shuffling the GOCC and PGI chips, which have rounder edges as noted previously. i think overall i prefer the GOCC chips, but i would be very happy with either.

the only thing left to test would be PGI's aligned chips. the alignment on the Nine Dragons is very good, but not perfect. perfection is an unreasonable demand, of course, but if PGI could produce literally perfect alignment, i'd go with them.
 
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