Payout Sh*tshow

Hairy_Crocodile

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So, I had an interesting experience last weekend at a friend's home game that I thought I'd share and ask your opinions on. Luckily, I wasn't on the receiving end of any of the bad part of it.

So, I am playing with a group of friends, probably 12 of us in total played throughout the night, 8-9 handed, 25¢/50¢ stakes.
We have 1 Dealer (the host), who is also banking. He always stops action when touching chips for re-buy's, cash outs, etc.

Normally, we have a few of us that like to deal, so we will have 1 dedicated dealer for periods of the night. With the table shape being weird, and experience level of some of the players shuffling/dealing making the game slow to a snails crawl, having a few guys like take turns dealing sitting near the center of the table just makes it easier for us as opposed to a self dealt game. I really have no worries about people trying to cheat as a dealer, I've known them all for years.

I buy in for $50, top off for $30 more and get felted on a suck-out later in the night. I decide I just want to smoke and hang out with everyone still, so I stick around. I'm watching dumb hands, laughing and talking with everyone, and eventually we decide to call it after a huge hand between the two big stacks get it all in on the flop and one of them gets stacked. (Flopped 2 pair vs top pair w/jack kicker into turned bigger 2 pair)

I go outside to smoke with the rest of the guys that got felted and hear commotion inside. People looked heated and confused, there was somehow still ~$100+ or so "missing" from the bankroll (I dont remember the exact number). After tallying up the buy ins, it looked like someone had introduced chips into the game either by cheating, miscounting stacks at payout, or the host making stacks for players that were supposed to be showing up later in the night getting absorbed somehow by players. So the money that was "missing", as far as I know, didnt exist. It was added artificially to the table it seems.

The big winner ($500+) was pissed, and said that because the host messed up and nobody knows where the mistake happened, that everyone should pony up for it collectively and pay him what he was missing. Only a few of the players at the table got paid out out of everyone, and the big winner was paid out last.

I genuinely think that the host messed up, and that the possibility of a player cheating at this game is very unlikely, in my opinion. If I had to make a bet, i think the stacks he set aside for his own convenience when others showed up were what caused the issue in the first place.

Ultimately, it was "resolved" after I had left where the big winner just got paid out $400-something and was told that the rest of the missing money didnt exist. None of the others that got paid out before really tried to speak up on the matter apparently.

How the heck do you mess up that bad, and how the heck do you resolve an issue like that?

What do you do in situations like this? The game state was so messed up that I have no idea how that would be fixed with that many chips being introduced to the game, or at least that much miscounting. Some people had been paid out and left already, so I do not know how they would fairly come to a conclusion.
 

joeyshin

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my bank has come up short and with extra a few times in my early hosting. I have always taken it upon myself as host and banker to make sure everyone gets paid out what they have. If the bank is short, I pay out the extra from my own winnings or even losses...if theres extra, i leave it in the bank for a week and if no one speaks up, its mine. Host/Banker absorbs all those responsibilities
 

HaRDHouSeiNC

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Happened once at my game and was mostly my fault but the other guy did it on purpose and total slimeball move

one guy cashed out and when he counted I think the guy grabbed $100 out of his stack when I grabbed cash to cash him out then I just racked the chips not even thinking

some newb there also stole my wallet out of my room with my poker money in it once and got over $500

overall it’s why I always took a small rake and had a jackpot high hand bad beat pot. If anyrhing fuked me the bad beat jackpot paid me back
 

Josh Kifer

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It's happened before, and my group we cut all payouts by a small percentage to make it fair. Of course, were tight knit and in the end, we arnt going to stab each other over money.... The game and time together is more important.
 

upNdown

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This has been discussed here a few times. Most people seem to agree that the host has to make it up out of his pocket. I agree - when I’m the host, I’m willing to do exactly that - it’s what’s necessary to keep people’s faith in the game.
But if I’m a guest and it happens and it seems honest and I’m ahead, I will offer to chip in, to make up the difference.

But for what it’s worth, $100 is A LOT of money to be missing from a quarters game.. I have a very hard time believing that was an honest mistake. Somebody could screw up with a $20 here or there, but you’re telling me somebody had an extra $100 in chips and didn’t realize it? Nope, I don’t believe it.
 

Hairy_Crocodile

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To be honest, I am unsure how accurate their number is based off of how much the host was disorganized; I do not think that the host had an actual concrete number of how bad his error was, which just as to how horrible it ran, and how i.lmpossible it seems to fix the mistake fairly. I really wish I had been trying to help and paid more attention. I dont feel like I should have to take control of every game I'm at, but i feel awful being at a game where it happened.

He no longer will be doing bankroll, nor be touching chips at all if/when he ever hosts again.
 
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Hairy_Crocodile

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Would the proper thing to do be to have found the actual number that the bankroll was off by, and divide that amongst the players getting paid out?
 

Schmendr1ck

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it's time for a reposting of my banking procedure:

1) Cash in, chips out. Never give chips from the bank on credit. Ever.
2) Only the banker touches the bank. This includes both cash and unpurchased chips. If I'm in a hand or in the john, they can wait two minutes.
3) Count everything twice. When someone buys chips from me, they count the money and I count the chips. Then we trade: they count the chips and I count the money. If we disagree, we do it again. Same procedure in reverse for cashouts.
4) The banker is always responsible for bank errors. I always cash myself out last. If the bank is short, I eat it.

And a corollary: If I'm playing in a game that doesn't follow similar procedures, I try my damndest to be one of the first to cash out.
 

ParrotheadMZ

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I agree the host/bank is responsible but my question is what chips were being used?
a secure chip or some cheap easily available chips.
did he actually have more total chips at the end of the night?
maybe someone brought some in!
 

Bluegrass Poker

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He no longer will be doing bankroll, nor be touching chips at all if/when he ever hosts again.
Then who is going to be the banker? His house, his game, he needs to be responsible.
Would the proper thing to do be to have found the actual number that the bankroll was off by, and divide that amongst the players getting paid out?
Absolutely not. He was host and banker. He pulls the short funds out of his wallet and pays the difference.
 

JK_Poker

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When I host, I’ll eat up any losses if their is any, I expect my friends to do the same when they host if that problem arises. I’ll handle the chips/money and stop the game when somebody rebuys or cashes out, I’ll then tally everything up before resuming the game. This method has been solid, and I’ve only ever had one incident in over 12 years of hosting, which I ate the cost, the bank was only out by $20, but I still made sure everything was right.
 

chipinla

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Game security is everything. Even if it's among friends. Taking the extra steps to ensure security is a hallmark of respect to your friends.
GTA solved this problem
24D8A20E-055A-4EEA-BFAB-60C8E42F22B6.jpeg
 

Craig D

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Firstly it is the hosts responsibility, if the bank is short they must make it right...

This means counting the chip bank before and after the game, being the only player in the chip bank or touching money, this step alone means the bank will always balance unless the host makes a mistake or chips are introduced or removed

Secondly the higher the money in play the more important chip security is, this is why people use custom chips and have separate cash and tournament chip sets, playing with common mass produced chips invites this kind of a problem

Thirdly one of your friends is a thief, either chips were introduced by a player thief or the host stole from players (this may have been inadvertent, but the host did not make it right)

Do you really need to play in a game that is so poorly run that it cannot cash players out correctly?
 

chipinla

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This is why 99% of my games are 2-3 chip denomination games with a 4th for color up. I feel like it helps everyone involved. Keeps its simple. I see so many people’s sets that have all these 100s and 500s in play. I don’t get it. Maybe I’m wrong but how many people here REALLY play home games where you need those?
 

LeLe

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It always be the banker who have to be responsible for the bank as he the only one who touch the chip and cash

It doesn’t have to be the host to be the banker, I have take over the role of banker many time despite not being a host

Thw banker should double check with the bank is it tally to the number of buy in from time to time not just at the start and at the end of the session

Use some system like when re buy in use finish your lowest demo first before using the next higher demo (example all 100 50c chip need to be out before all 200 $1 chip need to be out before 100 $5 chip need to be out I usually check at this junction if the total buy in = $750 and every 100 $5 I will double check again)
 

tabletalker7

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This is the EXACT reason why I made a cash register and a cart for poker. I have premade stacks for games. Those stacks stay in the cart until money goes in the register. That register has software that tracks every transaction. It tells me exactly how many of each chip is in play. The computer doesn't lie.
 

JustinInMN

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It should be pretty easy to determine if chips were introduced. Just count the set at the end of the night.

I know what I should have.
 

Coyote

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I 've made the opposite mistake as banker, recently.
After having cashed out correctly every single one, there was more money left for me than my chips stood for.
It seems I had placed money into the bank and didn't take the corresponding chips to the table, 'cause something apparently distracted me :rolleyes:
 

FDLmold

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This is the EXACT reason why I made a cash register and a cart for poker. I have premade stacks for games. Those stacks stay in the cart until money goes in the register. That register has software that tracks every transaction. It tells me exactly how many of each chip is in play. The computer doesn't lie.
well hello mr fancy pants.gif


Seriously though, that's smart. Being banker is thankless, and if the bank is short it's basically banker's job to make it right.
 

TwoHomie

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This is the EXACT reason why I made a cash register and a cart for poker. I have premade stacks for games. Those stacks stay in the cart until money goes in the register. That register has software that tracks every transaction. It tells me exactly how many of each chip is in play. The computer doesn't lie.
Would love to see and hear more about this setup. What software do you use? What cash register?
 

upNdown

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Being banker is thankless, and if the bank is short it's basically banker's job to make it right.
That is what frustrates me so much about these threads. People are so certain and so forceful and no exceptions, no excuses - ITS THE BANKERS RESPONSIBILITY!!! And I get it. I dont disagree. But on the other hand, why would anybody ever agree to be banker? We all want our games to be as professional as possible, to give our players the best experience. But in an actual professional game, the banker takes a rake, and gets some benefit to offset all the risk he's assuming.
I'm not saying we should rake our home games. And I'm not saying we shouldn't hold our bankers to the highest possible standards. But I do think we need to take a deep breath and just realize that the banker assumes all the risk for no benefit.
 
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