PAHWM - 4 handed ITM at monthly tourney (1 Viewer)

Chippy McChiperson

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Got an interesting hand. Money bubble just burst, we're 4 handed in a 20 player tournament with 6 rebuys. Average stack is almost 70k, $120 for 4th, $190 for 3rd, $270 for 2nd, $460 up top. Plus points weighted heavily towards the winner that go towards the final game (this is the penultimate monthly game before the final in October).

Blinds are 1.5k/3k.

UTG is newer to the game, a very quiet, very solid player who has about 40k.

Button is very solid very aggressive player with 62k.

SB is a much much much older gentleman, but despite his advanced age, is quite capable of playing non nutted hands. He's a solid player too, somewhere in between the other 2 in terms of aggressiveness. He has about 80k.

Hero is in the BB with 96.5k.

UTG folds, button makes it 8k (he'd raised almost all if not all his buttons once we got down to 4 handed).

Very old SB folds.

Hero looks at :jh::4h:. 5k to call, 12.5k in the pot. We have a slight chip lead, but will be playing OOP against a player who can only be described as @MatB level aggressiveness but he's also fundamentally sound.

What do we do?
 

grebe

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ummm, easy fold? I know it's suited, but not a good suited.

I guess we can defend here, but it seems unnecessary. We will be oop against a solid player.
 

Highli99

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we are four handed and blinds are massive. Are folks really playing Uber tight here waiting for premiums? Even the extremely edlerly player in SB who plays solid knows that's not a winning strategy.

I mean, we could have another AK against pocket jacks hand to discuss but situations like this are much more common and realistic than coolers.

Back to this hand, Folding pre is fine but probably unbalanced and exploitable. Already in the money so maybe something something ICM but that isn't my area of knowledge.

Personally I'd call here and look to get physical tells on the flop.
 

JMC9389

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we are four handed and blinds are massive. Are folks really playing Uber tight here waiting for premiums? Even the extremely edlerly player in SB who plays solid knows that's not a winning strategy.

I mean, we could have another AK against pocket jacks hand to discuss but situations like this are much more common and realistic than coolers.

Back to this hand, Folding pre is fine but probably unbalanced and exploitable. Already in the money so maybe something something ICM but that isn't my area of knowledge.

Personally I'd call here and look to get physical tells on the flop.
Unless you absolutely smash the flop, J4 suited is borderline at best to call. What are we hoping to see on the flop by calling? Hearts? A jack? Even a 4 may be good, but there are way more flops that are good for the button's range than hero's. Out of position as well? No thanks. Stacks can change on a dime four handed.
 

CraigT78

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I'm my monthly league experience, I need a face card higher than a J to call or 3x it.

That's what one of my final 4 would be betting with.

I don't want to take J4 suited to a coin flip. And that's what every hand at this level and beyond is.
 

grebe

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we are four handed and blinds are massive. Are folks really playing Uber tight here waiting for premiums? Even the extremely edlerly player in SB who plays solid knows that's not a winning strategy.

I mean, we could have another AK against pocket jacks hand to discuss but situations like this are much more common and realistic than coolers.

Back to this hand, Folding pre is fine but probably unbalanced and exploitable. Already in the money so maybe something something ICM but that isn't my area of knowledge.

Personally I'd call here and look to get physical tells on the flop.
We can afford to be picky. No need to dust off a bunch of blinds here.

I don't think folding this hand is nitty at all. Unbalanced and exploitable? Come on... It's not a good hand. Calling with hands like this then having to give up when we miss the flop is more exploitable than open folding.

If you tell me you are going to 3 bet, I'm listening. Call? Nah.... You are not being unexploitable by calling too much.
 

Highli99

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Appreciate the feedback I was pushing back on the easy fold pre answer to a strategy thread. I agree hero should fold for reasons stated. I suspect future feedback will begin with the phrase “as played....”
 

kirchhausen

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Got an interesting hand. Money bubble just burst, we're 4 handed in a 20 player tournament with 6 rebuys. Average stack is almost 70k, $120 for 4th, $190 for 3rd, $270 for 2nd, $460 up top. Plus points weighted heavily towards the winner that go towards the final game (this is the penultimate monthly game before the final in October).

Blinds are 1.5k/3k.

UTG is newer to the game, a very quiet, very solid player who has about 40k.

Button is very solid very aggressive player with 62k.

SB is a much much much older gentleman, but despite his advanced age, is quite capable of playing non nutted hands. He's a solid player too, somewhere in between the other 2 in terms of aggressiveness. He has about 80k.

Hero is in the BB with 96.5k.

UTG folds, button makes it 8k (he'd raised almost all if not all his buttons once we got down to 4 handed).

Very old SB folds.

Hero looks at :jh::4h:. 5k to call, 12.5k in the pot. We have a slight chip lead, but will be playing OOP against a player who can only be described as @MatB level aggressiveness but he's also fundamentally sound.

What do we do?
Fold more pre and respect your elders
 

ChipFinderSK

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Unnecessary (though hilarious) shots fired at the elderly gentleman IMO.

Let’s take a flop and see what happens.
 

18BetAllin

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Fold pre imo. Even with ICM pressure on your side, seems like you'd have to call off in a lot of high-variance, low EV spots to see showdown. Unless ofc you think is very too loose from the button in which case there might be a universe you shove to apply ICM pressure. DK though, there are definitely better people on the forum to listen to
 

Amatmaju

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I was playing loose last night (hence the stupid call that got me knocked out but we'll leave that alone!) so against known aggressor and his ranges from the button I may have called there depending on gut feeling... tell us how this hand plays out Chippy! ‍:)
 

Chippy McChiperson

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Unnecessary (though hilarious) shots fired at the elderly gentleman IMO.

Let’s take a flop and see what happens.

I find that these stat threads work best when you’re as accurate as possible, without any hint of bias. Anyway, it wouldn’t be much of a strat thread if I decided to fold, so I decided to make the call. The flop comes :jc::3h::2s:. Action is on us, with 17.5k in the middle. Villain has 54k behind, we have 88.5k behind.

What should we do?
 

warma

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I find that these stat threads work best when you’re as accurate as possible, without any hint of bias. Anyway, it wouldn’t be much of a strat thread if I decided to fold, so I decided to make the call. The flop comes :jc::3h::2s:. Action is on us, with 17.5k in the middle. Villain has 54k behind, we have 88.5k behind.

What should we do?
Include the previous hand history so we can follow along more easily. ;)
 

Chippy McChiperson

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Sorry Craig I don't remember...

Blinds 1.5k/3k

Tighty McTighterson with 13 bbs folds.
Spazz McGee with 21 bbs opens to 8k.
Old Man River with 27bbs is woken up, told 3 times what the action is, turns his hearing aid up, is told two more times, mutters something unintelligible under his breath, and falls back asleep. Floor rules this a fold.
Your valiant hero with 32 Biebers calls with :4h: :jh:.
 
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Amatmaju

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Well I'll say check raise as well and no I haven't heard the outcome of the cards or the play of the hand but I do know who wins the hand...
 

JustinInMN

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Hero looks at :jh::4h:. 5k to call, 12.5k in the pot. We have a slight chip lead, but will be playing OOP against a player who can only be described as @MatB level aggressiveness but he's also fundamentally sound.
I will join the chorus of others and say this is a fold. If it were before the bubble burst, I would very much consider a healthy 3-bet squeeze here with ATC since since no one wants to bubble out here. After the bubble it's different. I don't HATE the call because there is a lot going for it. The pot is laying 3.5-1, hero is closing the action, and has the leverage later in the hand of having everyone covered.

However, given the tournament dynamics, button is still way too deep to be forced to go with anything, I would give his voluntary open some respect here, even if it could obviously be a button steal. Furthermore, if we as hero run into a hand and lose another 7k in this pot to button, we will have relinquished the chip lead on J4s. That doesn't seem like solid poker.


I find that these stat threads work best when you’re as accurate as possible, without any hint of bias. Anyway, it wouldn’t be much of a strat thread if I decided to fold, so I decided to make the call. The flop comes :jc::3h::2s:. Action is on us, with 17.5k in the middle. Villain has 54k behind, we have 88.5k behind.

What should we do?

I think I am going to play for the CRAI as well. If I make a cheap call in the blinds, I think checking 100% of my range is sound. In other words, I don't think I have any donk bets in my strategy here without taking the initiative preflop. It's mostly going to be misses making this sort of call, have to be willing to check the strength too for balance. I assume button is going to c-bet 8-10k a lot here, and we should set him in for the remaining 45k or so to deny equity to the many hands containing A, K, Q that he has here. Assuming he c-bets 8k, he's looking at 46k to win 79k or so. This is obviously a disaster when we run into JJ+, which villain has in his range for sure, but villain has a lot of small pairs and unpaired hands in range as well. We might well get called by 66-TT here if villain decides to play cop.

So fold pre, but I think the call can be somewhat excused.
Check the flop planning to raise the button all in.
 
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Chippy McChiperson

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Ok ok fine, I'll check raise. Just a recap for those still interested...

1.5k 3k blinds, 4 handed.

utg (13 bbs) folds.
aggro button (21bbs) makes it 8k.
WWI veteran in SB (27bbs) folds.
Hero in BB calls with :jh: :4h:

Flop is :jc: :3h: :2s:

For all you advocating to fold pre, I seriously considered it. I looked back up at the OP and realized I forgot to mention that Villain raised literally every button that got to him unraised since we were at the final table, if that changes your thinking.

Anyway, hero checks, knowing villain will likely continue, and then hero's plan is to shove. Things don't go as planned, however. Villain shoves all in for 54k into a 17.5k pot. What should we do?


Also as a side not, there's a previous hand that occurred about an hour before that may come into play.

Hero raised button with 22, Villain called with ?? Villain checked, hero continued on an insignificant board (probably something like 953), Villain raised, and hero shoved. Villain folded and showed an ace and said you must have hit, hero shows him 22 and told him he has a tell.

Villain may or may be worried hero will check raise him here and he'll have a tough decision. Or he may be over shoving for value. Or he may have total air. Just food for thought.
 

JustinInMN

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For all you advocating to fold pre, I seriously considered it. I looked back up at the OP and realized I forgot to mention that Villain raised literally every button that got to him unraised since we were at the final table, if that changes your thinking.
It would if we were talking about hands more like JTs or J9s that can also flop straights in addition to flushes. J4s is in the bottom half of starting hands. If we let this one go, we are a favorite to have a better hand to defend with next time this situation comes up, we don't have to draw the line here.
 

Chippy McChiperson

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It would if we were talking about hands more like JTs or J9s that can also flop straights in addition to flushes. J4s is in the bottom half of starting hands. If we let this one go, we are a favorite to have a better hand to defend with next time this situation comes up, we don't have to draw the line here.
I thought suited j4 was right around the 50th percentile of starting hands.
 
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