4 of a Kind
- Nov 2, 2014
- Reaction score
- Halethorpe, Md
This is very player dependent, but I think we call.Anyway, hero checks, knowing villain will likely continue, and then hero's plan is to shove. Things don't go as planned, however. Villain shoves all in for 54k into a 17.5k pot. What should we do?
Hahaha. Some players are so aggressive the tell is they move their chips in the pot every time they bluff, and slow play every time they have it. This might inform my position to call it off here.Hero raised button with 22, Villain called with ?? Villain checked, hero continued on an insignificant board (probably something like 953), Villain raised, and hero shoved. Villain folded and showed an ace and said you must have hit, hero shows him 22 and told him he has a tell.
This is very player dependent, but I think we call.
I just find it unlikely villain would do this with JJ+, but it would help if hero had some confirmation of this read. Based on the description, villain is likely aware of the pot size and is just trying to lay a price so poor hero will have to fold most holdings here. Villain also is not putting JJ+ in hero's range I assume so villain may think Jx is about the best hero could have.
Hahaha. Some players are so aggressive the tell is they move their chips in the pot every time they bluff, and slow play every time they have it. This might inform my position to call it off here.
To be honest, I had not consulted a ranking chart when I said it's lower half. This chart has J4s at 86 of 169 combinations (counting all pairs, offsuit combos, and suited combos as the same class), which would have it at 49% above the bottom.I thought suited j4 was right around the 50th percentile of starting hands.
Somewhat irrelevant to this discussion, but I know the SB very well, and I can assure you he is not a WWW I veteran,
let alone a "much much much older gentleman" although he is old enough to be Chippy's and Highli's father
For all you advocating to fold pre, I seriously considered it. I looked back up at the OP and realized I forgot to mention that Villain raised literally every button that got to him unraised since we were at the final table, if that changes your thinking.
Anyway, hero checks, knowing villain will likely continue, and then hero's plan is to shove. Things don't go as planned, however. Villain shoves all in for 54k into a 17.5k pot. What should we do?
Even as played, I think this is a fold. Either way ahead or way behind. Sets and overpairs are in a button's raised range. They can really have anything here. Would this be a villain to shove with just two overs like AK, AQ suited, etc?Important information here. I probably squeeze here a bunch now. J4s would be a consideration. I still say folding > 3 bet > calling
Sets and overpairs are in a button's raised range. They can really have anything here.
I think this is how I would have played it. This flop smacks the range of hands hero would defend with in the blinds. Lead out and then if you get shoved on, cry fold.Even I fold that pre.
As played, I don’t bother with the checkraise. Bet 75% pot and bail if you get raised unless villain has a history of reraising light.
Ummm if I made the final table I’m playing well and I absolutely don’t bring my cash game bullshit to this situation.Umm hero has a face card no way you're folding pre
I think this is how I would have played it. This flop smacks the range of hands hero would defend with in the blinds. Lead out and then if you get shoved on, cry fold.
There's positives and negatives to a lead out or a check raise. Check calling a shove is just about the worst potential outcome. Hero just isn't beating much besides a bluff shove even with top pair. This is why I would fold pre I'd absolutely hate this spot.
The reason I think this is a call is because I am not willing to put villain on "anything" here when villain could clearly get value with stronger hands at a different sizing. I would need to know this about villain to be sure, but I am just having trouble giving villain credit for super strength there. Given the history, this feels like villain wants to bluff at this, but can't risk hero pushing him in.
I agree, I really hate bet-fold as a line here. By playing pre, you are pretty much committing to going with this if you make a jack or better. It's just too hard for me to come up with a balanced strategy if I call widely from the blinds. (And I do call widely, just maybe not quite as much as this hand , but I am probably going to defend as weak as maybe 86s for example.) I really just prefer to check 100%.
This is a tough spot now. In my league a call would be absolutely player dependent. If my experience with the player that they will put it all on the line with air, I'm calling. But I've got other guys who would still fold bottom set here to agression.
Flip a coin - heads I call, tails I fold.
This is a very good point, and denying this equity is the reason I would have preferred to check-raise, but the villain denied this opportunity.The reason I fold is that even if the V is bluffing, he can have pretty good equity against us (two overs is 25% equity, for instance). If he is not bluffing, we are truly fucked in a hand we should not have been in to start with.
This makes sense. I think against an aggressive opponent, this may well be a leak if you aren't going with flops where you make top pair. That's usually a pretty clear sign of overfolding. If you aren't going with top pair, you are folding all but the rarest flops that make two-pair-plus, and maybe some combo-flush-and-over draws. That said, you're right that it's a very good reason to be more selective preflop. If you recognize you are only going beyond the flop on rare hits, it's another sign to fold pre.I am OK with some really thin bets, but calling is a different story. I am not confident in this enough to say you are wrong.....this may be a leak for me folding top pair. Like I said though, I like a fold pre here anyways.