PAHW Barrie!

BarrieJ3

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
8,144
Reaction score
12,261
Location
Captain of the Winnebago Eagle-5
Big O - 5 Card PLO Hi/Low .10/.20 w/ Mand Straddle

SB Solid Player $58
Big Blind Drives Action $185
UTG Unknown Player $100
UTG + Action Junkie $371
MP1 Hero $255
MP2 Solid LAG $255
HJ Somewhat Passive $53
CO Unknown Player $181

Hero has 2/2/3/8/K. Image is a LAG, loves big hands, loves to occasionally bluff/chase but more so put pressure on others. Big wins, big losses. Super LAG.

Blinds get called around the table, SB raises to $3.40. Everyone but UTG calls until CO repops to $9, everyone calls.

Pot is $63.40
Flop comes 3/3/K
First 4 players check, Hero in Middle Position....Action?
 
Last edited:

DrStrange

Full House
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
4,859
Reaction score
8,734
Location
Outlet Mall in San Marcos
eight handed times $9 looks like $72 to see the flop. We don't know Hero's stack size making it hard to offer advice

hero's hand is garbage for high and often second best if there is a low. Looks like trouble to me, close to garbage even with the low potential. Fold preflop.

Hero hits a really lucky flop. This is as much about extraction as it is protection. Hero has a perfect table image. let's bet. Can't say how much not knowing hero stack size. My goal would be to get it in, preferably on the turn.
 

Moxie Mike

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
2,402
Reaction score
2,508
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Big O - 5 Card PLO Hi/Low .10/.20 w/ Mand Straddle

Stacks are $58-$370 Players represent a wide mix.

Hero has 2/2/3/8/K. Image is a wild player, loves big hands, loves to chase. Big wins, big losses.

Blinds get around the table, raised to $3.40, popped to $9, and 8 people call.

Pot is $63.40
Flop comes 3/3/K
First 4 players check, Hero in Middle Position....Action?

The action matters. The individual stack sizes and their respective positions matter too. It also matters who limped and who raised in what order. It also matters how many players are between you and the button and what their stack sizes are.

Based on what you've posted, and the fact that you've described yourself as a swingy, spewey player, I don't know why you aren't potting it having flopped the 2nd nut FH. With 6 opponents KK could very well be in the field, but you didn't call a raise and a reraise preflop to fold the 2nd nut FH, did you?

Against that type of preflop aggression, @Saoliver is right - this is a fold. Taking a flop with 223xx isn't always bad O8 poker - in a limped pot it's not a huge mistake unless you get married to a marginal hand. But when facing significant aggression, you gotta bail on this one dude.
 

BarrieJ3

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
8,144
Reaction score
12,261
Location
Captain of the Winnebago Eagle-5
Updated OP for specific players, action, etc. I don't mind this being a quick one since I have Mike and the Dr. here with me.

Big O - 5 Card PLO Hi/Low .10/.20 w/ Mand Straddle

SB Solid Player $58
Big Blind Drives Action $185
UTG Unknown Player $100
UTG + Action Junkie $371
MP1 Hero $255
MP2 Solid LAG $255
HJ Somewhat Passive $53
CO Unknown Player, but has shown aggression $181

Hero has 2/2/3/8/K. Image is a LAG, loves big hands, loves to chase but also put pressure on others. Big wins, big losses.

Straddle gets called around the table, SB raises to $3.40. Everyone but UTG calls until CO repops to $9, everyone calls.

Pot is $63.40
Flop comes 3/3/K
First 4 players check, Hero in Middle Position....Action?

SB/BB/UTG check through, I check through to the aggressive players behind me, which also check down.

Turn comes, 3/3/K/4

SB Checks, BB Bets $5, UTG+ Calls $5, Pot is now 73.40 and Hero.....
 

Josh Kifer

Royal Flush
Site Vendor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
13,808
Reaction score
32,301
Location
Idaho
Updated OP for specific players, action, etc. I don't mind this being a quick one since I have Mike and the Dr. here with me.

Big O - 5 Card PLO Hi/Low .10/.20 w/ Mand Straddle

SB Solid Player $58
Big Blind Drives Action $185
UTG Unknown Player $100
UTG + Action Junkie $371
MP1 Hero $255
MP2 Solid LAG $255
HJ Somewhat Passive $53
CO Unknown Player, but has shown aggression $181

Hero has 2/2/3/8/K. Image is a LAG, loves big hands, loves to chase but also put pressure on others. Big wins, big losses.

Straddle gets called around the table, SB raises to $3.40. Everyone but UTG calls until CO repops to $9, everyone calls.

Pot is $63.40
Flop comes 3/3/K
First 4 players check, Hero in Middle Position....Action?

SB/BB/UTG check through, I check through to the aggressive players behind me, which also check down.

Turn comes, 3/3/K/4

SB Checks, BB Bets $5, UTG+ Calls $5, Pot is now 73.40 and Hero.....
Now your losing to a 44433 boat. Fold.
 

Moxie Mike

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
2,402
Reaction score
2,508
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Updated OP for specific players, action, etc. I don't mind this being a quick one since I have Mike and the Dr. here with me.

Big O - 5 Card PLO Hi/Low .10/.20 w/ Mand Straddle

SB Solid Player $58
Big Blind Drives Action $185
UTG Unknown Player $100
UTG + Action Junkie $371
MP1 Hero $255
MP2 Solid LAG $255
HJ Somewhat Passive $53
CO Unknown Player, but has shown aggression $181

Hero has 2/2/3/8/K. Image is a LAG, loves big hands, loves to chase but also put pressure on others. Big wins, big losses.

Straddle gets called around the table, SB raises to $3.40. Everyone but UTG calls until CO repops to $9, everyone calls.

Pot is $63.40
Flop comes 3/3/K
First 4 players check, Hero in Middle Position....Action?

SB/BB/UTG check through, I check through to the aggressive players behind me, which also check down.

Turn comes, 3/3/K/4

SB Checks, BB Bets $5, UTG+ Calls $5, Pot is now 73.40 and Hero.....

I assume the button folded at some point?

Was there a FD on the flop? If so did the turn complete any FDs? I know it doesn't matter to you since you flopped the FH, but FDs are probably important to some of your opponents.

So here's why you need to bet the flop. Chances are there are at least one and maybe both A2 combos in the field - and they both hate this flop. One of the aggressors (probably the CO) might even have AA2. You can also extract value from from a player holding the other 3... with 6 opponents there's a good chance someone has it. This is how you leverage your table image to get calls from weaker hands whereas a nut-peddler has difficulty getting paid off from observant opponents.

You also don't want to give a free card since unless the turn is the case 3 or a King, you're about to go from holding the 2nd nut to the 3rd nut for high and now there's a low draw possible too. Your 8-2 doesn't even qualify as an 'emergency low' against this many opponents.

So from the CO's perspective, he's not going to c-bet into 6 opponents with nothing but an overpair and a backdoor low draw on a paired board.

So on the turn, you have the 3rd nuts for high and there's a wheel draw, which probably excites several opponents since no one bet the flop.

The $5 bet from the BB is comically small. I suspect they're holding bare trips and are hoping to get the river card cheaply. In fact, it kind of feels like everyone is trying to get to showdown as economically as possible.

I'd probably bet full pot here (~80ish). You want to make the low draws pay as much as possible. It seems unlikely someone would have slowplayed KK* unless checking to the aggressor is the standard line for everyone like it was for you on the flop. 44 will probably call but not raise. You might get jammed on with A2 especially if they have counterfeit protection and/or a FD to go with it. A256x definitely isn't going anywhere.

I think if you get jammed on you're calling if it's the SB or the CO. If one of the other players who've been passive to this point sets you in you probably should consider folding.

There's also a case to be made for calling the $5 hoping to peel the river and get to showdown as cheaply as possible. There's a good chance the low draw will come in for someone... so if you've resigned yourself to playing for 1/2 the pot you might as well take a passive line.

*I think the only case for slowplaying top FH on this flop is if you have a2 with it... presenting the opportunity to scoop a much larger pot. A2KKx is an oddly specific combo to be holding though.
 
Last edited:

JustinInMN

Full House
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
3,752
Reaction score
4,196
Location
Burnsville, MN
Yea, this is a fold pre for sure.

Low pairs don't really have value in big-o and low hands without ace really don't really play well either.

This hand isn't with calling the 0.40 straddle or whatever the mount was.

Hero flops pretty well and still has to fear just about every run out. Checking the flop is really bad too. Definite limit the field spot and want to fold out the backdoor lows, giving them a free card is a disaster.

And now a 4 on the turn means lows all have a draw at half the pot. Slowplaying is split pot games makes little sense.

I think you have to raise the turn just to hope to collect max from low draws and fold out the pairs higher than 4, but you have only the 3rd nuts and anyone with a low draw and a pair could scoop you at the river.

I think hero has vastly overrated this holding on every street.
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,552
Reaction score
39,398
Location
Atlanta
Holy crap, this hand -- and thread -- is a total clusterfuck. I had envisioned as much, but was still surprised. Wtf, doesn't your deck of cards have suits?

Fold pre, bomb flop, bomb turn. Anything else is a huge error.
 

Moxie Mike

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
2,402
Reaction score
2,508
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Holy crap, this hand -- and thread -- is a total clusterfuck. I had envisioned as much, but was still surprised. Wtf, doesn't your deck of cards have suits?

Fold pre, bomb flop, bomb turn. Anything else is a huge error.

Are you jamming the turn if you pot the flop and are called?
 

Moxie Mike

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
2,402
Reaction score
2,508
Location
Grand Rapids, MI

Interesting. I think I would slow down and check back (hopefully closing the action)... cautious after considering what any opponent could possibly call a pot size flop bet with besides top FH, bare trips treys or some type of weird multi-combo-backdoor-draw. There's merit to the argument that giving a free card is hazardous; getting it all in possibly drawing to one out or less is outright @davin-ious :)
 

davin

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
6,302
Reaction score
6,283
Location
Hawaii
Interesting. I think I would slow down and check back (hopefully closing the action)... cautious after considering what any opponent could possibly call a pot size flop bet with besides top FH, bare trips treys or some type of weird multi-combo-backdoor-draw. There's merit to the argument that giving a free card is hazardous; getting it all in possibly drawing to one out or less is outright @davin-ious :)
Wea u been hater lol
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,552
Reaction score
39,398
Location
Atlanta
Only losing to KK and 44 -- much more likely that villain has a lesser holding, probably with a low draw. Potting has to be correct.
 

BarrieJ3

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
8,144
Reaction score
12,261
Location
Captain of the Winnebago Eagle-5
lol we all start somewhere! Didn’t include suits based on hitting FH on the flop and it dropping from full table to two handed, so flushes never came into mind - my bad.

Big O - 5 Card PLO Hi/Low .10/.20 w/ Mand Straddle

SB Solid Player $58
Big Blind Drives Action $185
UTG Unknown Player $100
UTG + Action Junkie $371
MP1 Hero $255
MP2 Solid LAG $255
HJ Somewhat Passive $53
CO Unknown Player, but has shown aggression $181

Hero has 2/2/3/8/K. Image is a LAG, loves big hands, loves to chase but also put pressure on others. Big wins, big losses.

Straddle gets called around the table, SB raises to $3.40. Everyone but UTG calls until CO repops to $9, everyone calls.

Pot is $63.40
Flop comes 3/3/K
First 4 players check, Hero in Middle Position....Action?

SB/BB/UTG check through, I check through to the aggressive players behind me, which also check down.

Turn comes, 3/3/K/4

SB Checks, BB Bets $5, UTG+ Calls $5, Pot is now 73.40 and Hero.....Raises $83.40. Everyone folds except UTG+, who calls again.

River comes, 3/3/k/4/10
UTG+ has $280, hero has $163.11. $235.20 in the pot.

UTG shoves. Hero....?

(and in hindsight, if hero has $250, does that change your decision?)
 

Hornet

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
2,901
Reaction score
7,872
Location
Columbus
lol we all start somewhere! Didn’t include suits based on hitting FH on the flop and it dropping from full table to two handed, so flushes never came into mind - my bad.

Big O - 5 Card PLO Hi/Low .10/.20 w/ Mand Straddle

SB Solid Player $58
Big Blind Drives Action $185
UTG Unknown Player $100
UTG + Action Junkie $371
MP1 Hero $255
MP2 Solid LAG $255
HJ Somewhat Passive $53
CO Unknown Player, but has shown aggression $181

Hero has 2/2/3/8/K. Image is a LAG, loves big hands, loves to chase but also put pressure on others. Big wins, big losses.

Straddle gets called around the table, SB raises to $3.40. Everyone but UTG calls until CO repops to $9, everyone calls.

Pot is $63.40
Flop comes 3/3/K
First 4 players check, Hero in Middle Position....Action?

SB/BB/UTG check through, I check through to the aggressive players behind me, which also check down.

Turn comes, 3/3/K/4

SB Checks, BB Bets $5, UTG+ Calls $5, Pot is now 73.40 and Hero.....Raises $83.40. Everyone folds except UTG+, who calls again.

River comes, 3/3/k/4/10
UTG+ has $280, hero has $163.11. $235.20 in the pot.

UTG shoves. Hero....?

(and in hindsight, if hero has $250, does that change your decision?)
I vaguely remember this hand ... which seat was I?
 

Hornet

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
2,901
Reaction score
7,872
Location
Columbus
Above everyone. Frowning....
Was that me .... or you?!?!?
285630BD-D181-4A6E-A252-5AE0EA93647B.gif
 

JustinInMN

Full House
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
3,752
Reaction score
4,196
Location
Burnsville, MN
Tough river, got flatted on the turn and shoved at the end.

Just hard to think any competent player has less than a full house, it's a polarized play. This is where suits could help, but obviously don't matter, we could ask of the villian is overvaluing a flush.

You are reduced to bluff catching here, good luck.
 

Moxie Mike

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
2,402
Reaction score
2,508
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Tough river, got flatted on the turn and shoved at the end.

Just hard to think any competent player has less than a full house, it's a polarized play. This is where suits could help, but obviously don't matter, we could ask of the villian is overvaluing a flush.

You are reduced to bluff catching here, good luck.

So if I understand the turn action, UTG+1 flats the BB's $5 bet, then you pot it next to act. Action folds around to UTG+1 who calls, CLOSING THE ACTION.

You've described this player as an 'action junkie'. Have you seen him show down huge bluffs at any point? What exactly in your observation makes him an 'action junkie'?

Going back to the turn action, I find it curious that VILLAIN had 2 opportunities to make big bets for value and elected to call both times. One would think he would gladly get it all in with KK on this board against an opponent who just showed great strength with a pot sized bet. Maybe he has KKA2 and was hoping to scoop both high and low, but that doesn't make any sense either.

It just seems very strange that he had a good spot to get it in and instead decided to peel a river card out of position with a lot of money left to bet. I honestly don't get it.

So the river blanks (again info about the suits would be helpful here) and he open shoves, putting you in a difficult spot. I'm inclined to think he has a hand like A256x. He could also have a hand like A2TTx... which would be unfortunate. He could also have had bare trip 3s... maybe a hand like 3Txxx with some type of low possibility or something like that and filled up on the river.

So it's $163 to call in order to win $400. So you need to be right about 40% of the time to show a profit here. What are the chances he has been sandbagging KK here? What are the chances he holds exactly TT and rivered a better FH. Would he really donk bet like that into you with the 2nd nuts?

Knowing nothing about the opponent, it's hard to imagine someone playing KK that way with all those opportunities to bet his hand and protect against the low draw... then all of a sudden he jams the river? Is he the type to wait until the board is safe to bet his hand? Doesn't sound like any action junkies I know.

I think KK is very unlikely. I think he has a smaller FH, TT or a busted wrap low/wheel draw. Two of the three HERO beats, so I'd call.

(All this analysis is how I talk myself into a lot of bad hero calls. So buyer beware.)
 

BarrieJ3

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
8,144
Reaction score
12,261
Location
Captain of the Winnebago Eagle-5
So if I understand the turn action, UTG+1 flats the BB's $5 bet, then you pot it next to act. Action folds around to UTG+1 who calls, CLOSING THE ACTION.

You've described this player as an 'action junkie'. Have you seen him show down huge bluffs at any point? What exactly in your observation makes him an 'action junkie'?
Plays almost every single hand pre regardless of hand strength and has a wide range of raising pre. Chases down constantly, and every winning hand either shows a complete whiff of a bluff, or the nut/nut.
 
Top Bottom