My Journey As A Professional Poker Player

TX_Golf_N_Poker

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You're not understanding this unfortunately. I'm not giving the casino a pass, the casino isn't shirking any duty. They have zero legal standing to do what you want them to do here. Your issue is with the letter of the law, not with the casino.

In the blackjack scenario, you are stealing directly from the casino. They have jurisdiction to protect themselves in that instance.

In the scenario that happened today, the aggrieved party would have to try and take the scumbag to small claims court to recoup their money. The Casino does not have the legal right to enforce gambling debts or disputes between 3rd parties.

Believe me, I get what you're saying. To an average person looking at this, both examples look like THEFT. But the legal system doesn't always operate in a manner that meshes with common sense, there are a lot of intricacies that come into play based on wording, intent, etc.

And unfortunately the laws are written in a manner that prevent the Casino from having any authority to do more than ban the individual who is welching on the bet. The guy who got screwed lost $815, as the scumbag did put a lot of chips forward, but ran with the single 1k chip and didn't pay the full all-in to the other player.
If what you are saying is the way the law is written, and you are sure of that, then that's completely different. Still wrong, and a bad law that ought to be lobbied to be changed, but different from what I was responding to.

You said above, that:

The problem here is everyone could then scam the casino if they were forced to "make it right"

You and a buddy go in and plunk down 30k each. Get it in, one of you walks, refusing to pay and now the casino has to "make it right"

That scam would happen all over

So my reply to that was - if they can stop the blackjack player, then they can stop the poker player. They just choose not to, because they don't feel that he is stealing from them.
 

Anthony Martino

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If what you are saying is the way the law is written, and you are sure of that, then that's completely different. Still wrong, and a bad law that ought to be lobbied to be changed, but different from what I was responding to.

You said above, that:

The problem here is everyone could then scam the casino if they were forced to "make it right"

You and a buddy go in and plunk down 30k each. Get it in, one of you walks, refusing to pay and now the casino has to "make it right"

That scam would happen all over

So my reply to that was - if they can stop the blackjack player, then they can stop the poker player. They just choose not to, because they don't feel that he is stealing from them.

The blackjack player is stealing from the Casino. The poker player in todays situation was not honoring a debt to another player, the casino in that instance is a middle man with no legal ability to enforce the debt.

In the situation you quoted, what I'm saying is that IF the Casino were required to "make it right" in the situation that happened today, it would open the Casino up to being scammed.

A team of two guys shows up to play poker. They both buyin for huge stacks and then get their money in. One of them walks and you're advocating the Casino would be forced to "make it right" which I believe you mean to "make the player whole" by reimbursing them the money they didn't get paid by the player who bolted (since again, the Casino still doesn't have the legal rights to stop the bolting player and forcefully take the money from them to settle the debt)

IF that were the case, and the Casino had a duty to "make it right" by making the ripped off player "whole" and pay them the missing money, then teams of players would travel around from poker room to poker room running that scam, and the rooms would get screwed because they'd be getting ripped off left and right.

No poker room is going to lobby for that or agree to it, and most casinos look at poker rooms as the "black sheep" of the property, a necessary evil that they'd rather have filled with banks of slots making them their core revenue stream.
 

inca911

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When a player’s chips go into the pot as part of the action, they become in the casino’s custody until the casino employee awards the pot. If the casino employee fails to bring chips into the pot and under their protection, that *should* be their responsibility. After all, that is part of what the rake is about. I guess players must now remind the dealer to bring all chips into the pot from all players before any revealing of cards to close this theoretical loophole. Lame, but easily solvable unless I can now take from any pot with impunity. Can I directly steal from a player without casino interference, if a bet isn’t involved? Hmm….
 

TX_Golf_N_Poker

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Anthony, I'm not misunderstanding anything you are saying. I don't think you understand me. I'm not arguing the situation from a legal standpoint. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't understand the laws that govern casino operations. I'm arguing this from a higher standpoint. Moral right from wrong. You're still saying that the casino can't stop that particular scam. I say they can. Not can legally, but physically can - logistically they COULD stop it if they wanted to and were legally liable for the losses if they didn't.
The blackjack player is stealing from the Casino. The poker player in todays situation was not honoring a debt to another player, the casino in that instance is a middle man with no legal ability to enforce the debt.

In the situation you quoted, what I'm saying is that IF the Casino were required to "make it right" in the situation that happened today, it would open the Casino up to being scammed.
I disagree. I still feel (again, morally if not legally) that the casino SHOULD be responsible for the chips that are bet in a poker game, just as they are in a table game. I say, if they can (physically, not legally) stop the blackjack player from doing it, then they can stop the poker player from doing it.
A team of two guys shows up to play poker. They both buyin for huge stacks and then get their money in. One of them walks and you're advocating the Casino would be forced to "make it right" which I believe you mean to "make the player whole" by reimbursing them the money they didn't get paid by the player who bolted (since again, the Casino still doesn't have the legal rights to stop the bolting player and forcefully take the money from them to settle the debt)

IF that were the case, and the Casino had a duty to "make it right" by making the ripped off player "whole" and pay them the missing money, then teams of players would travel around from poker room to poker room running that scam, and the rooms would get screwed because they'd be getting ripped off left and right.
No they wouldn't. The casinos would simply employ the same means that they do now to stop the table games players from running the same scam. Sorry, but casinos have been around for years. Long before they had any laws to protect them. And they used whatever means necessary to ensure they didn't get scammed or ripped off. There is no way they would allow this scam to take place "left and right" if they were liable for the losses. Yes, I know. You say the law says they are not. So that's the ONLY reason why they wouldn't stop it.
No poker room is going to lobby for that or agree to it, and most casinos look at poker rooms as the "black sheep" of the property, a necessary evil that they'd rather have filled with banks of slots making them their core revenue stream.
And this may well be the ultimate answer. They don't want to protect the poker players like they do themselves at the table games. I assume because they don't make enough profit off of poker to make it worthwhile.
 

pltrgyst

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The blackjack player is stealing from the Casino. The poker player in todays situation was not honoring a debt to another player,
That might be true if he calls and never pushed his chips in, but once those chips are released across the betting line, they're casino property and it's theft.

IMO, this one is on the dealer and thus the casino.
 

JMC9389

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If I'm in an all in hand and have an opponent covered, and they decide to take away a part of their stack that went to the pot that they lost, that's theft. If those chips were across the betting line, they're the casino's responsibility. Even so, if the chips weren't across the betting line, the dealer's job is to make sure that all chips relative to an action are in the pot before it is awarded.

I'm with @pltrgyst here. Sorry Anthony, the casino fucked up either way. I wouldn't let this stand if I was the one in the wrong here, especially if a significant amount of cash was at stake.
 

Anthony Martino

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That might be true if he calls and never pushed his chips in, but once those chips are released across the betting line, they're casino property and it's theft.

IMO, this one is on the dealer and thus the casino.

There is no "betting line" at hard rock

Hell, people toss in one chip as a call and keep their stacks in front of them
 

JMC9389

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There is no "betting line" at hard rock

Hell, people toss in one chip as a call and keep their stacks in front of them
This is common practice, yes, but perhaps it's time to revisit considerations pertaining to this rule for these instances in which someone doesn't make whole on a bet.
 

Anthony Martino

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This is common practice, yes, but perhaps it's time to revisit considerations pertaining to this rule for these instances in which someone doesn't make whole on a bet.

As this is the first time I've witnessed this sort of thing in DECADES of playing, I doubt the rooms will make any changes as they would view the games being significantly slowed down to put all the chips in correctly every single hand as a bigger hit to the game than the rare instances this sort of shit happens.

However, should this sort of thing become more commonplace, I think procedures would need to be revisited and unfortunately the games slowed down. Since it's so rare I don't see the tradeoff being worth it long-term overall in the poker community, despite the shittiness of it when it does happen.
 

Payback

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When a player’s chips go into the pot as part of the action, they become in the casino’s custody until the casino employee awards the pot. If the casino employee fails to bring chips into the pot and under their protection, that *should* be their responsibility. After all, that is part of what the rake is about. I guess players must now remind the dealer to bring all chips into the pot from all players before any revealing of cards to close this theoretical loophole. Lame, but easily solvable unless I can now take from any pot with impunity. Can I directly steal from a player without casino interference, if a bet isn’t involved? Hmm….

This is why the one chip rule needs to stop and players should insist that all of the money is put into the middle when an all in occurs before any additional streets are dealt or hole cards are exposed. Unfortunately, this takes time, which means less hands per hour for the dealers and ultimately less money per hour for them. Therefore, the incentive is for them not to follow the proper procedures.
 

Anthony Martino

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This is why the one chip rule needs to stop and players should insist that all of the money is put into the middle when an all in occurs before any additional streets are dealt or hole cards are exposed. Unfortunately, this takes time, which means less hands per hour for the dealers and ultimately less money per hour for them. Therefore, the incentive is for them not to follow the proper procedures.

Not to mention if the all-in occurs on the river people are generally just flipping over their hands and revealing the winner, rather than waiting for a full countdown of stacks before hands are revealed.

It's just not feasible to do it otherwise given the rarity of this scam happening, because the slowdown in the games would be worse than the few times a scumbag pulls it.

Here's another post I found on our site here that spells out why the casino can't get involved when the chips are still in front of the scumbag player:

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/bizzzzzare-angle-at-wynn.39795/post-739736
 

TX_Golf_N_Poker

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I suspect the rarity of the scam probably has something to do with the idea that most people believe you could never get away with it. If you hadn't witnessed this, I would never believe the guy would have been allowed to walk out the door. And sounds like from your other post that they aren't in Cali and Vegas, which is good to know. If word starts to get around that in Florida you are allowed to walk, it may start happening a lot more often.
 

Anthony Martino

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I suspect the rarity of the scam probably has something to do with the idea that most people believe you could never get away with it. If you hadn't witnessed this, I would never believe the guy would have been allowed to walk out the door. And sounds like from your other post that they aren't in Cali and Vegas, which is good to know. If word starts to get around that in Florida you are allowed to walk, it may start happening a lot more often.

It happens outside of FL too. I think it doesn't happen a ton cause most players are actually decent human beings

But unfortunately there's always going to be fucking scumbags out there
 
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Poker Zombie

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This whole thing is reminiscent of a player at a craps table swiping chips out of their neighbor's stack. Casino security has gotten involved in preventing such theft before, though it is not a lightning quick arrest as you might hope. They must to get the thief in the act on film for evidence. They must identify that it is theft, and not 2 players playing out of the same stack.

Theft is quite common in casinos as liquor makes easy marks, and security has to give the benefit of the doubt (all men are innocent until proven guilty). The guys that get caught have been spotted before and security needs to work methodically to stop them.

Hell, there has been thousands swiped out of dealer trays (the Motorcycle bandit) that security did virtually nothing to stop as it happened.

If someone did not pay their all-in and tried to walk out, it would be up to you to go after the guy. Make a ruckus. Yell "That guy stole my chips!" Try to block his path. There usually security at every door, if they see a fight about to break out, they have no choice but to stop a fight. That's your best chance to get things resolved.

It would suck, and who knows what risk you put yourself in. But much like a purse snatcher, you cannot rely on the Police to chase the suspect down it you don't try anything yourself. I suspect another patron (probably wearing a cowboy hat) would be more likely to help you than security, but if you do nothing when they take your money, dont expect anybody else to.
 

tabletalker7

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Unfortunately I've never done a custom loop either, only All-In-One Watercooling. So I won't be able to offer much advice on it except run leak tests!
After building a custom loop I can offer one huge piece of advise. The CPU water block will come with a sticker on it that says "WARNING Remove this sticker before using this part". Dude they aren't joking.
 

Anthony Martino

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The pregame warmup

20210717_180239.jpg
 

Josh Kifer

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The blackjack player is stealing from the Casino. The poker player in todays situation was not honoring a debt to another player, the casino in that instance is a middle man with no legal ability to enforce the debt.

In the situation you quoted, what I'm saying is that IF the Casino were required to "make it right" in the situation that happened today, it would open the Casino up to being scammed.

A team of two guys shows up to play poker. They both buyin for huge stacks and then get their money in. One of them walks and you're advocating the Casino would be forced to "make it right" which I believe you mean to "make the player whole" by reimbursing them the money they didn't get paid by the player who bolted (since again, the Casino still doesn't have the legal rights to stop the bolting player and forcefully take the money from them to settle the debt)

IF that were the case, and the Casino had a duty to "make it right" by making the ripped off player "whole" and pay them the missing money, then teams of players would travel around from poker room to poker room running that scam, and the rooms would get screwed because they'd be getting ripped off left and right.

No poker room is going to lobby for that or agree to it, and most casinos look at poker rooms as the "black sheep" of the property, a necessary evil that they'd rather have filled with banks of slots making them their core revenue stream.
He's correct, in a poker room, the casinos money is the rake, not the money going between players. Blackjack, you are playing against the casino. Poker, they just take a fee for providing it.

If they grab the 1k from him, he would have standing for an illegal search and seizure of his property, and open the casino for a lawsuit.
 

Anthony Martino

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UTG raises to 3k

We rip 17.5k with :ks::kh:

Big stack in blinds calls, original raiser calls

I'm up against :ah::th: and :7h::6d: (orginql raiser) lol

Flop :qs::8c::7d:

Turn :as: SUCKA DEALA!!!

River :3s:

REBUY!

We have one table with 23 entries, I'm in for 3 buyins and only a few minutes til break and reg closes. I rip it blind UTG and birthday boy big stack calls

I have :as::jh: and he has :qd::jc:

We both flop our top pairs and river our bottom pairs, get the double right before reentry ends

20210717_193317.jpg
 

Anthony Martino

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Playing 1/2 six card PLO

$5 bring-in or straddle. Buyins $100-500

Lost first buyin, stacking up a bit on 2nd

Also doing $25 dealer flips plus have props if you are dealt quads or a 6 card flush or straight
 
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