No comment on whether it's wise or unwise or how it might turn out, but is there no way to reintegrate him to the friend group that doesn't involve poker? I have a friend who's consistently made an ass of himself getting drunk and belligerent the last few times we've hung out, and I'm determined to only be around him in sober contexts going forwards. If he wants to hang out with me, we won't be drinking. Could be tough if poker is the main social activity for your group though. I guess it's a bit too late for that anyhow. I'm generally a believer in second chances, but also trying to make honest assessments of people and mitigating risk (for everyone's sake, not just your own).
My First Time Catching a Cheat (Yes, Really) (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter Jimulacrum
- Start date
OP
OP
Jimulacrum
Full House
I have an old family friend who was a junkie. He came into my uncle's house to spend the night while he was using, and he stole $60 from his wallet—one time—to buy drugs.
He came to me a couple years later, confessed what he'd done, and asked me what he should do. He was clearly feeling super-guilty about it. Knowing my uncle, I told him he should get at least $60 (ideally $80 or $100) to pay him back, come to him face to face, tell him exactly what happened, and apologize. He eventually did, my uncle forgave him, and he has moved on from that time in his life.
Your "friend" here was invited into people's homes and chose to steal from everyone through deception, i.e., to con you all, in amounts that would qualify as a felony, spanning many individual incidents over years,. I don't see anything about substance dependency or another mitigating factor here. From your account, it seems that he chose to do that because he wanted to steal from you all.
He never came clean on his own. He never paid anyone back. He randomly ran into you all because someone died, and he talked his way back into the game.
If he'd reached out to one of you unprompted, riddled with guilt, confessing everything and prepared to pay everyone back, I might have a different take on this. That kind of gesture can be powerful. But he didn't do any of that. None of the elements are there aside from his words, which are meaningless from a con man.
Thieves like this prey on people's trust and emotions. They abuse what you perceive as friendship. Once someone has crossed this line, it's madness to trust him again, absent some kind of extremely meaningful show of penitence (and even then, meh).
That's why people get so upset about cheats. It's one of the lowest forms of theft there is. I'd have more respect for a bank robber.
Now your whole game needs to be preoccupied with watching this thief every time you play with him. Doesn't matter how long the game goes on; none of you should ever trust him or stop watching him, and that's terrible. It also means you can't invite other people to the game, unless you can think of an elegant way of saying, "We let a known cheat play in our game because he's an old friend."
When you finally catch him cheating again, or stealing from someone's house, or using his access to you all to run a scam, don't say I didn't warn you.
Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake.
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merkong
Flush
Caught a thief. Tough situation. As a host the integrity of my game was at stake.
Gone.
Gone.
I’m trying to understand it from his perspective and how he can be comfortable sitting back in knowing he cheated everyone at the table out of a lot money and no one now trusts him. I could not have done it. Like, isn’t every big pot one drags from that point gonna be tainted with potential misstrust and begrudging looks?
We know the risks. And it’s not just me letting him back.
This began with another reg who hosts trying him out first. Several of us went to that game multiple times to see how it went. If anything it was kind of embarrassing how careful he was with the deck and dealing. As it should be.
After 4-5 sessions I spoke with other regs in my game who overlap with the other game and we decided to give him a try, with the addition of a camera.
As for watching, as a host I always watch everything. We shuffle behind, the chips get inventoried, the cards are checked after each session, etc. But most of all me and at least one other thinking player watch the action like hawks. Both for the strategic advantages this brings, and for game security, This doesn’t require much added effort on my part.
Question: If players are watching closely, and there is a camera to allow for post-game review, and the suspect knows he is being monitored, what method would you imagine a non-magician who is under close scrutiny could use to cheat? I’ve read a fair amount about 19th Century sharps, and I doubt he has a metal card holding device up the sleeve of his tracksuit.
I can’t think of one, realistically, but am interested to hear theories (besides “he cheated before, so!”). Genuinely interested to be educated.
This began with another reg who hosts trying him out first. Several of us went to that game multiple times to see how it went. If anything it was kind of embarrassing how careful he was with the deck and dealing. As it should be.
After 4-5 sessions I spoke with other regs in my game who overlap with the other game and we decided to give him a try, with the addition of a camera.
As for watching, as a host I always watch everything. We shuffle behind, the chips get inventoried, the cards are checked after each session, etc. But most of all me and at least one other thinking player watch the action like hawks. Both for the strategic advantages this brings, and for game security, This doesn’t require much added effort on my part.
Question: If players are watching closely, and there is a camera to allow for post-game review, and the suspect knows he is being monitored, what method would you imagine a non-magician who is under close scrutiny could use to cheat? I’ve read a fair amount about 19th Century sharps, and I doubt he has a metal card holding device up the sleeve of his tracksuit.
I can’t think of one, realistically, but am interested to hear theories (besides “he cheated before, so!”). Genuinely interested to be educated.
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If you're that vigilant (especially with a camera), I wouldn't actually be that worried about them cheating unless they're a real card wizard. The main issue I'd see are whether or not it's a drag to keep up that kind of vigilance for your games, that could be kind of tiring. The other issue would be, do you expect them to maybe go back to bad habits if your comfort goes up and you get less vigilant?
I don't think you need to justify yourself to anyone outside your group. If the people in the group want him to play, and are okay with the history, then that's your decision. Personally I would find it too taxing to keep an eye on a player every game. I want to be able to relax, get up from the table from time to time, and have a few drinks without having to worry the game could be compromised. But again, we don't know your situation and relationships.
I don't think you need to justify yourself to anyone outside your group. If the people in the group want him to play, and are okay with the history, then that's your decision. Personally I would find it too taxing to keep an eye on a player every game. I want to be able to relax, get up from the table from time to time, and have a few drinks without having to worry the game could be compromised. But again, we don't know your situation and relationships.
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OP
OP
Jimulacrum
Full House
The chances for him to steal from the poker game again are pretty limited. Small informational stuff at most, like not telling anyone if he sees an exposed card. The gains from that are so thin that he'd do better to announce it every time just for reputation points.
But he's inside people's houses. He has access to anything he can put his eyes or hands on—cash, jewelry, drugs, credit cards, phones, or anything else left lying around. He could physically steal or engage in identity theft or other scams. He could install cameras without your knowledge. He could set you all up to be robbed by someone else. Think about it like a thief, because that's what he is.
And it's a death sentence for your poker game. Any game that isn't growing is shrinking, and your game can never grow with him in it.
Mr Winberg
Full House
I agree that nothing is black n white. I can fully understand that there are situations when second chances can or even should be given and when they shouldn't.
But I'm curious about the money. What stakes are you playing? Can't he just at the start of each game pay 1 extra buy-in which you distribute as you see fit? E.g. either put in an account until you reach 10 grand and then distribute equally among the victims? Or you take turns collecting that extra buy in? Or something like that? E.g. if your buy-ins are 200 it'll take 50 games and he's debt free...and another 20 as interest.
Another question: What did he buy with the money if he doesn't have it? (And if your answer is "living expenses" my follow up is what he the bought with his main income). Like, does he have a cool watch that your group paid for? If so, that baby is going on eBay, right?
TheDuke
Full House
Well, best of luck. Hopefully he has reformed.
Installing a camera and having to watch every one of his moves doesn't sound like a fun game whenever he's around.
I think @Eriks made a good point earlier. A normal individual with a conscience would likely feel way too embarrassed to return to a game under these circumstances. The fun and camaraderie normally associated with playing cards is totally out the window with the need of a security cam and everyone scrutinizing his every move.
Is the mood light or is everyone a bit on edge when he's around?
Installing a camera and having to watch every one of his moves doesn't sound like a fun game whenever he's around.
I think @Eriks made a good point earlier. A normal individual with a conscience would likely feel way too embarrassed to return to a game under these circumstances. The fun and camaraderie normally associated with playing cards is totally out the window with the need of a security cam and everyone scrutinizing his every move.
Is the mood light or is everyone a bit on edge when he's around?
OP
OP
Jimulacrum
Full House
I agree too. As a general rule, cheats and thieves should never be trusted again, but I could see a case for exceptions to be made, like with the junkie friend in my story.
I just don't see a case for an exception here.
I wonder how many wins the thief needs to rack up before people start feeling sore that he is choosing to not pay them back what he stole.
Mr Winberg
Full House
I can't believe he isn't making an effort to at the very least start paying them back. And you're 100% right, if he starts racking up wins and doesn't pay back, well then in my book he's still thieving.
I adjust my advice: Pay back 1 buy-in each night plus the winnings in case he wins!
I think that's extremely reasonable. If he doesn't oblige he's still a thief in my book.
At this point I think it is about trying to erase the stink of his past transgressions, by proving he doesn’t do it anymore. But I agree, in his shoes I might move to another part of the country.
OP
OP
Jimulacrum
Full House
Your shoes are the shoes of someone with an appropriate level of genuine guilt and shame.
Since there have been several comments suggesting that I seek restitution from the cheater, here’s a serious (and I hope constructive) question for debate, if anyone has the stomach for it:
SCENARIO:
QUESTIONS:
A) How do you compute how much the person owes to the game?
B) How would the restitution be divided among the people who played in them?
C) Do you seek restitution on behalf of all games attended by the group, or only the games you personally hosted? (The player pool is essentially the same across three different venues.)
DATA POINTS:
1) You estimate the cheater has played about 200 times over 6.5 years.
2) The games included two-table tournaments followed by single-table cash games. The cheater played in both types.
3) The tournaments ranged from $35-$120 buyins, usually with at least one rebuy allowed. Records indicate that the cheater cashed in 55% of tournaments.
4) The cash games were a mix of mostly 1/2 with some 2/5. No records exist of cash game results, but anecdotally the cheater seemed to be a consistent winner in these.
5) There were multiple hosts of the game, though the players were essentially the same. You hosted the last 2.5 years of the cheating period.
6) There were roughly 30 people who played in the tournaments, about 12 of them quite regular (90+% attendance), 8 of them semi-regular (~50% attendance) and 10 of them more occasional attendees. The cash games were mostly filled by the core group of 12 players.
SCENARIO:
You catch someone cheating in a game. You believe the cheating has been going on a long time. You want the cheater to make restitution.
QUESTIONS:
A) How do you compute how much the person owes to the game?
B) How would the restitution be divided among the people who played in them?
C) Do you seek restitution on behalf of all games attended by the group, or only the games you personally hosted? (The player pool is essentially the same across three different venues.)
DATA POINTS:
1) You estimate the cheater has played about 200 times over 6.5 years.
2) The games included two-table tournaments followed by single-table cash games. The cheater played in both types.
3) The tournaments ranged from $35-$120 buyins, usually with at least one rebuy allowed. Records indicate that the cheater cashed in 55% of tournaments.
4) The cash games were a mix of mostly 1/2 with some 2/5. No records exist of cash game results, but anecdotally the cheater seemed to be a consistent winner in these.
5) There were multiple hosts of the game, though the players were essentially the same. You hosted the last 2.5 years of the cheating period.
6) There were roughly 30 people who played in the tournaments, about 12 of them quite regular (90+% attendance), 8 of them semi-regular (~50% attendance) and 10 of them more occasional attendees. The cash games were mostly filled by the core group of 12 players.
My calculations/thoughts:
* I’d conservatively guesstimate the value of his cheating as amounting to maybe +$150 per game above expected results (if he hadn’t cheated).
* $150 x 200 = $30,000
* If split evenly among all 30 people who played, that’s $1K per person.
* However, payouts should probably be more like $1,600 for regs, $1,000 for half-time players, and $400 for occasional participants.
* I am somewhat dubious about attempting to collect on games I did not host personally (though I was very regular in all three venues and kept the tournament records for two of them).
* If only for the 2.5 years I hosted out of 6.5 years (about 40% of games), the restitution would be more like $12,000, with regs getting $640 each, half-timers $400, and occasionals $160.
Per above, I think the chances of receiving restitution occurring are slim in this particular case. But I think it’s an interesting question to ponder, not just for myself but anyone else in such a situation.
* I’d conservatively guesstimate the value of his cheating as amounting to maybe +$150 per game above expected results (if he hadn’t cheated).
* $150 x 200 = $30,000
* If split evenly among all 30 people who played, that’s $1K per person.
* However, payouts should probably be more like $1,600 for regs, $1,000 for half-time players, and $400 for occasional participants.
* I am somewhat dubious about attempting to collect on games I did not host personally (though I was very regular in all three venues and kept the tournament records for two of them).
* If only for the 2.5 years I hosted out of 6.5 years (about 40% of games), the restitution would be more like $12,000, with regs getting $640 each, half-timers $400, and occasionals $160.
Per above, I think the chances of receiving restitution occurring are slim in this particular case. But I think it’s an interesting question to ponder, not just for myself but anyone else in such a situation.
merkong
Flush
No restitution. No deliberation. Cut bait. Done.
How do you explain to brand new players you have a reformed cheater at the table.
Oh, HIPPA (or whatever) then you’re not being forthright with new people.
Game dies.
How do you explain to brand new players you have a reformed cheater at the table.
Oh, HIPPA (or whatever) then you’re not being forthright with new people.
Game dies.
Mr Winberg
Full House
My answers below follow two opinions that I have on this, namely
So regardless of how unfair the calculations potentially are, the unfairest approach is no calculation at all.
If #2 above is followed, the risk that people get less than they're owed is lower.
My 1 cent (I lost my other cent to a cheater in last months game)
- It doesn't have to be exact. Anything above 0 is a step towards justice
- If the calculations were to overvalue the amount, that isn't necessarily unfair. If he cheats me out of $X and pays me back $X+$Y, then the $Y covers "the fine" for his crimes. If I was a cheater who repented, I would insist on paying back at least 2×$X just to show that I'm serious.
I think you did a pretty good job. It doesn't have to be exact. It ticks off #1 above, hopefully #2 as well.
You should strive for fairness, but no biggie if it doesn't turn out 100% correct. If he stole $1000 from me and I get $500 back, well at least $500 > $0. And remember, $0 is what I'd be getting if no attempt is made to get him to pay it back.
So regardless of how unfair the calculations potentially are, the unfairest approach is no calculation at all.
If #2 above is followed, the risk that people get less than they're owed is lower.
I would personally take responsibility to seek restitution for the games I hosted, as I would feel that I have that responsibility towards my players. I would then ask other hosts to do the same. If they refuse (or fail), I would seek personal restitution from him for the games I attended.
My 1 cent (I lost my other cent to a cheater in last months game)
Mr Winberg
Full House
Hell, if I was him I'd be thrilled to pay an extra buy-in the rest of my life even if that meant 1 million in the end! I wouldn't believe my luck that I was let back into the game, or more importantly: back into the social group!
Think about it: If a doppelganger pulled this shit off in your place so that you got shunned by your friends, what amount wouldn't you pay for their forgiveness?
Think about it: If a doppelganger pulled this shit off in your place so that you got shunned by your friends, what amount wouldn't you pay for their forgiveness?
To be totally honest, I don’t think you can. Even if you came to an agreeable number, how do you distribute it amongst the players. Are all the current players the same as when the cheating occurred? Are there habitual losers vs winners, etc.?
Just way too many unknowns/variables. IMO, it’s the kind of thing were letting sleeping dogs lay is probably the best approach.
The potential for it to cause more disagreements, group harm is likely high.
Not forgetting or forgiving the lost amounts, getting it back is likely unrealistic and you could never really accurately determine the amount lost.
IMHO - if you (as a group) elected to allow him back in the game, you’ve accepted the past and are moving on.
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Yeah I’m with this.
Let him back in or don’t. Forgive him or don’t. Forget about it or don’t.
But you can’t possibly calculate amounts owed and every payment would create additional problems - who gets paid how much next, and when?
I’m not forgiving the cheating or making light of it in any way. But I think this talk of restitution is nonsense. Move on, one way or the other.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
I may not be smart enough because I want denominations on my chips. But I did remember that @Taghkanic said this in a thread once a few years back.
TheDuke
Full House
For me, the calculus would not consider $X over expected amount. Everything he won would be considered void.
Since you have records, returning 100% of his tournament winnings would be a good start.
For the cash games, you'll have to estimate. How often did he leave up and what was his average winnings?
So if he usually cashed out on the plus side 60% of the time, with average winnings of $300, over the span of 200 games:
$300 x 200 x 60% = $36000.
Tack on interest and asshole tax. Call it $40000 even. If he doesn't have it, put him on a payment plan. $10000 down payment gets him in the door. $500-$1000 at the beginning of each session thereafter.
Also, late night pizza/food for the entire group is on him for the rest of his life.
And a custom shirt for him to wear every single session with "I'm a cheating bitch!" on the front and back. Shirt has to be bright - blaze, canary, or day green.
And perhaps an atomic wedgie at the beginning and end of each and every session as well. Still pondering that one though - that may be a bit too extreme.
Since you have records, returning 100% of his tournament winnings would be a good start.
For the cash games, you'll have to estimate. How often did he leave up and what was his average winnings?
So if he usually cashed out on the plus side 60% of the time, with average winnings of $300, over the span of 200 games:
$300 x 200 x 60% = $36000.
Tack on interest and asshole tax. Call it $40000 even. If he doesn't have it, put him on a payment plan. $10000 down payment gets him in the door. $500-$1000 at the beginning of each session thereafter.
Also, late night pizza/food for the entire group is on him for the rest of his life.
And a custom shirt for him to wear every single session with "I'm a cheating bitch!" on the front and back. Shirt has to be bright - blaze, canary, or day green.
And perhaps an atomic wedgie at the beginning and end of each and every session as well. Still pondering that one though - that may be a bit too extreme.
TheDuke
Full House
LotsOfChips
Flush
Shuffling behind (or forward) still allows for the known cheat to cull certain high value cards and manipulate them to a known section of the deck. Easy enough if you know how (and he probably does) to false shuffle to keep those cards in a specific section of the deck. Watching the cut (assuming that you insist that a different player does the cut) still gives the cheater information about the location of those specific cards during the deal.
False cuts, organizing the deck with false overhand shuffles, lots of ways to gain an advantage. You don’t have to have a specific card in a specific location, just knowing the general location of one or two key cards can give a huge advantage.
How do I know? I played in a game where both the host and his wife did exactly that. Years later I found an e-book on “micro-cheating” that laid out a bunch of different shuffling scams, and I recognized most of them from that couple’s game.
So if you’re going to review the camera afterwards, better know all the ways how he can gain an advantage, and watch EVERY time he touches the cards, because odds are that at some point the urge will be too great for him to resist.
The other option is obvious, and a lot less work.
OP
OP
Jimulacrum
Full House
This is all true. It's not especially difficult to shuffle a deck so that, say, you create or maintain a small packet of cards on the bottom, which when the deck is cut can land around the middle, where the board will ultimately come from. It's also not that hard to shuffle an individual card or small packet to the top of the deck during the "strip," especially if you do it off the table the amateur way (as compared to the pro-dealer way).
Someone could do this stuff right in front of you, and if he's good at it you wouldn't even notice. I used to do a card trick in high school that involved this sleight of hand. I did it in front of the same small group for weeks and no one figured it out, even after they started to get frustrated about not understanding the trick. It doesn't offer as much control as, say, dealing seconds, but you certainly don't want it in your game.
It's also not hard to surreptitiously palm things off of tables and shelves in an instant. I frequently do this (to friends) with random stuff like phones, just to be a cheeky bastard.
Cheating and stealing are way easier than non-cheats and non-thieves think. It's mainly a question of morals, not technical skill. All the cameras in the world can't make a man honest.
merkong
Flush
If a doppelgänger was able sit and be me at a game… Well, ain’t happening. The cheat and their doppelgänger can go start their own game.
You can't. Also why somewhat common reactions to discovered cheating include beating the crap out of hiim, taking all of his money on-hand, and permanent removal to ensure the future security of the game.
Bottom line: your game is no longer secure. Even if he is never discovered cheating again, the possibility certainly exists, and any winnings he manages to collect will (and should) cause concern in the eyes of some. It's just not worth it.
I think something being overlooked is “small cheating” gives a good player a huge edge. Why do you think blackjack players work so hard for a 1/2% advantage.
Ensuring one good big hand in the beginning can set you up to be a big stack. Know your opponent has one Jack can save you losing a big pot. Knowing the bottom half of the deck is low card rich tilts the odds. Peeping the bottom and top cards matter. Not every hand, but over time
Ensuring one good big hand in the beginning can set you up to be a big stack. Know your opponent has one Jack can save you losing a big pot. Knowing the bottom half of the deck is low card rich tilts the odds. Peeping the bottom and top cards matter. Not every hand, but over time
Do people really think there is no possibility of cheating in games you play in or host?
I am sure there is a “possibility” of cheating in every game. Maybe even a probability, over time.
The mere possibility is not a reason to paralyze oneself or refuse to consider the similar possibility of someone recovering.
Arguably knowing exactly who might be cheating, and having that person on notice and under close watch—as opposed to having no idea who might be crooked and no wariness about it—could be considered safer. (I’d still prefer it never happened at all of course.)
It remains that members of our group resumed playing with this person at our other game, and once at my house, with no incidents so far, and no one dropping out.
I am sure there is a “possibility” of cheating in every game. Maybe even a probability, over time.
The mere possibility is not a reason to paralyze oneself or refuse to consider the similar possibility of someone recovering.
Arguably knowing exactly who might be cheating, and having that person on notice and under close watch—as opposed to having no idea who might be crooked and no wariness about it—could be considered safer. (I’d still prefer it never happened at all of course.)
It remains that members of our group resumed playing with this person at our other game, and once at my house, with no incidents so far, and no one dropping out.
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Yep. This is something I discussed in my separate thread about the culprit.
The main manner of his cheating was not classic deck-stacking but more involved peeking here and there and at times some limited rearrangement. Not pure cold-decking.
Most of the time his rearranged deck would get cut—he made efforts to avoid it—but that still helped him know some cards which wouldn’t appear. (Subtraction)
As someone with a very sharp poker mind, these small edges gave him a much bigger leg up than it would have to a bad, unthinking player.
We are very aware of these “micro-cheats” and any hint of them will be one strike and you’re out.
And it’s not just cameras. Those are more useful for review and proof after the fact than catching someone in the act. The main preventative is people at the table watching the cards and how they are handled.
For now the person seeing our forgiveness is being ultra cautious, being almost ostentatiously open and careful when cards come his way for shuffling or dealing, and shuffling in the classic way. (His cheating shuffle was more unorthodox, we noticed once the investigation started.)
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