My First Time Catching a Cheat (Yes, Really) (6 Viewers)

Having a baseline of how you feel and would plan to handle a situation is one thing, living it is another.

doublebooyah85 said:
And Jesus said,“If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you”.
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The bible also mentions (psalms 137:9)

'Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.'

I think we can get by without scripture.

The point I think you and a few others are making is the actually meaning of forgiveness. I think to forgive someone doesn't mean you turn a blind eye or absolution of past transgressions. I DO think it means that you can't hold them accountable for past transgressions. As we journey deeper into tragedy, I feel we have less contrast we have between black and white, right and wrong.

In this case, I don't think there should be an expectation of paying people back, thats not forgiveness that's a version of indentured servitude. I do understand wanting some form of 'evidence' of reform or understanding of the 'wrong' trespassed.

Forgiving them isn't tied to letting them back into the game. I don't think I would risk monetary funds with them in any context, but I could forgive them; and enjoy social events with them.

doublebooyah85 said:
The shuffletech was a great idea. Hell go full table! A big donation to the game. But I think time has passed and he’s already back.
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This is a great point, I did this and I have a dealer, 15-20 bucks an hour is a small price to pay to enjoy the evening, drama free, well at least as much drama as it can afford.

Thank you @Taghkanic for being open and sharing, I think people might be somewhat harsh, as they care for your well being.
 
Budha said:
Repaying the $$ doesn’t necessarily repair the trust. So for me, focusing on restitution isn’t worth the effort as it was never really about the $ to begin with (at least for me).
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I agree with this. But repaying (on the spot or over a period of time) is a very symbolic act. Jim (is that your name?) put it very well:
Jimulacrum said:
With regard to no restitution: It's not so much the fact that he hasn't paid back that's the issue; it's the fact that he didn't even offer. It speaks to his motives
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I think I as a host would say "ok you're back in, on one condition..."
Cheat: "Yes...?"
Me: "Call me when you've figured it out"



Budha said:
I just think if you let the guy back in as a friend, you have to let the past go - otherwise, don’t let him back in.
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I understand this point of view, but I just don't think the two are mutually exclusive.


Like, how would everyone react if he didn't cheat, but at each game he attended stole someone's watch? Then he is caught and thrown out of the game for being a thief. Then when he's allowed to return he shows up each night with someones watch on his wrist. Would you all be ok with that?

@Taghkanic I think you're the bigger person for forgiving and even not requiring restitution. Just be mindful about your players, there's a chance some might reason the way I do.
 
Taghkanic said:
Thanks for all the feedback, at least for most of it… Some general reflections:

Poker attracts all sorts of people, and that’s part of the greatness and allure of the game.

In my community, there is a lot of segregation by background and professions. Poker is the one place I’ve found where none of that matters.

I’ve played at the same table with a convicted arsonist and a Republican judge. With a billionaire philanthropist and a guy who stocks shelves at the supermarket. With a retired national ad exec and a dive bar bartender. With a State trooper and a drug dealer.

I’ve played (and had a great conversation) with a guy who I later learned was under indictment and awaiting trial for embezzlement of government funds. Played with carpenters and dairy farmers and Vietnam vets and photographers and journalists. Trumpers and Socialists.

I even played—several times—with two young guys and a trans woman who didn’t return for the next session because soon thereafter ***they were all charged with murder.*** And convicted. (They were loose, careless, fun poker players, and seemed really quite nice. So much for player profiling.)

And yes, I’ve played for many years with a tableful of people I’d have trusted to hold $100K in cash for me, one of whom turned out to be unworthy of such trust. Live and learn. And hope others are learning, too.

This to me is the most remarkable thing about poker—that it leads lots of people of different backgrounds to sit around the same table.

None of the above excuses the cheat in question. It does, however, highlight the fact that just by playing poker you are sitting down with and taking risks with all kinds of people. We try to be good judges of character, but people are endlessly surprising.

I think many delude themselves that *their* game and *their* friends are different. I’d wager that everyone here has been cheated at cards at least once. Not that I like it, nor wish to invite it, contrary to a few of the more manichaean suggestions above.

As a host, it’s always about managing risk; it can’t be 100% eliminated. Our private games have never been held up, or raided. But that kind of thing could still happen any time, despite all my precautions.

Reintroducing this particular person after a 3.5 year ban—someone who grew up in my hometown, whose family knew mine, who has deep relationships with the rest of my regs, and whose issues are well known to the group—is yet another managed risk among many raised by hosting. I think things are well under control, and possibly even less perilous than some of the other sticky situations I just mentioned. My take—which may turn out disastrously wrong, or not—is that he’s currently *less* likely to cheat than anyone else, given the trajectory of his story. It’s my job to keep a close eye on that, and I have help.

Good news for those who disagree: You don’t have to play in my game.

Host the way you want to and make your own character assessments. I am comfortable that my game is as secure as any. That is: Only as secure as one can reasonably expect given the nature of poker.
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I, along with many in this thread, would love updates from time to time on this situation, and whether this guy goes back to his past ways, or continues on the straight and narrow.
 
Another sincere question, re. Shuffletechs:

At casinos these jam fairly frequently. And I often see technicians (at slow hours) working on a half-dozen units at an unused table.

How difficult are these to maintain, if one is reasonably handy? Does the company provide good tech support?

(Re.: My situation: A shuffling machine I doubt would satisfy some commenters.)
 
TomC727 said:
I, along with many in this thread, would love updates from time to time on this situation, and whether this guy goes back to his past ways, or continues on the straight and narrow.
Click to expand...

I will absolutely update if the guy gets caught again, makes restitution, or anything else of interest. If you don’t hear anything, it’s because nothing noteworthy has occurred.
 
Taghkanic said:
Another sincere question, re. Shuffletechs:

At casinos these jam fairly frequently. And I often see technicians (at slow hours) working on a half-dozen units at an unused table.

How difficult are these to maintain, if one is reasonably handy? Does the company provide good tech support?

(Re.: My situation: A shuffling machine I doubt would satisfy some commenters.)
Click to expand...
I have one, I also have a blower, you can use a can of air, you need to wipe down the rollers after 4 to 5 uses. I have very little issues with mine, been using it for over 1.5 years for 6-12 hour sessions, no issues (poker sized cards only!)

Depending how often you play, you could just have a stand by one. Its less than 5 mins to swap it out, and you would have warning when one is going bad.

Shuffletech will repair them, but after 2 or 3 repairs its just better to get a new one imo.
 
@Machine you can find a scripture for anything in the Bible. Not even a big religious guy myself. But whatever Jesus “may have been”…dude had a good take on life and I agree with what he said.

Shuffle tech has been amazing for me. Almost a year now. Maybe 1 jam a night and it takes 15 seconds to clear. Like @Machine mentioned those aerosol cans that clean cpu keyboards and such and some rubbing alcohol on q tips to clean the rollers the day of poker do the trick. Minimal maintenance.

But I do think it also requires a dedicated dealer or also I like the idea where the dealer and 5 seat takes turns. Or the host handles the shuffle machine and then passes the deck out to be dealt.
 
doublebooyah85 said:
@Machine you can find a scripture for anything in the Bible. Not even a big religious guy myself. But whatever Jesus “may have been”…dude had a good take on life and I agree with what he said.
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There’s a lot of stupid shit in the Old Testament and most of it has nothing to do with Jesus. But it sure is used to justify a lot of hatred in the world.
 
doublebooyah85 said:
@Machine you can find a scripture for anything in the Bible. Not even a big religious guy myself. But whatever Jesus “may have been”…dude had a good take on life and I agree with what he said.
Click to expand...
I would agree, he has some of the best lines, the writers did great with the Jesus character!
 
The only scripture I need is the Boards Prayer



Our Dealer who art in degen.
Circus be thy game
Give us this game our daily gamble.
Forgive us our slow roll
As we Forgive those who check raise against us
Lead us not into rebuys
Deliver us from suck outs
For ever and ever
Degen
 
MatB said:
The only scripture I need is the Boards Prayer



Our Dealer who art in degen.
Circus be thy game
Give us this game our daily gamble.
Forgive us our slow roll
As we Forgive those who check raise against us
Lead us not into rebuys
Deliver us from suck outs
For ever and ever
Degen
Click to expand...
Friendly slow rollers at home games are fine. But if that happens at a casino, I’m gonna need somebody to smite that guy.
 
Taghkanic said:
I will absolutely update if the guy gets caught again, makes restitution, or anything else of interest. If you don’t hear anything, it’s because nothing noteworthy has occurred.
Click to expand...

Since cheating is again a big topic on PCF, I thought I’d update my situation FWIW.

I’ve now played 10 times with the repentent cheater who was caught in my game pre-pandemic.

He was allowed back more recently into both my game and another with much the same player pool, after he had something of a Come to Jesus moment. That decision to give him a second chance was controversial here, but not among the players in either game.

In any case, I’ve since played with him several times in my own game, but mostly have sat with him in another game, hosted by one of my regs.

I’ve been watching him closely (see below), as have two other players who overlap in the two games. So far none of us have seen any recidivism.

His results have been bad overall. Quite bad. I’d estimate that he is down an average of about 1.5 buyins per session. This was someone who almost never had a losing session before he was caught/reformed.

He’s had roughly 3 winning sessions and 7 losing sessions out of the 10. One of the wins was big, but several of the losing nights were each bigger.

He has grown increasingly and vocally frustrated with how he’s running. In one session, he blew through 3.5 buyins in a couple of hours and left the game early in a huff... In the past he would stay to the bitter end every time.

He keeps bemoaning how “lucky” other people run against him, though I would characterize the “suckouts” he’s suffered as entirely within normal variance. (Someone calls him getting correct odds to draw to a flush or straight, and catches.) Others are just the kind of stuff we all see constantly in poker—he runs his JJ into someone else’s AA, or his QQ+ into someone else’s flopped set on a raggy board.

I feel like he’s somewhat in shock about how poker goes when you’re not cheating. That is a good lesson, as long as it does not bring about a relapse of wanting to cheat.

If anything, I’ve noticed the reformed cheat being ultra careful about his shuffles and deals. No side/overhand shuffles, no moving of cards to the top or bottom of the deck, none of his old patter about “It doesn’t matter if you cut, it’s all random,” etc.

One thing I’ve done whenever possible is to choose the seat to his right. This gives me a stellar view of his shuffles and deals. It also means that I handle the cards en route to him. When I shuffle, or when the deck is passed to me to cut, I’ve been holding onto it until the next hand is totally done, then pass it only when the table is clear to deal. This gives someone who wants to mess with the deck no time to do so.

He hasn’t expressed any impatience to get the cards in hand sooner, and hasn’t remarked on my tardiness. (I’ve played with plenty of guys who are always pushing for you to cut/pass, as if I didn’t know what to do.) It’s a small thing, but it seems like a good sign.

So yeah, it’s stupid that I have to even think about it. But it doesn’t take much of my headspace. And I can’t say I’m not quietly pleased to see the shark become the whale.
 
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Taghkanic said:
Since cheating is again a big topic on PCF, I thought I’d update my situation FWIW.

I’ve now played 10 times with the repentent cheater who was caught in my game pre-pandemic.

He was allowed back more recently into both my game and another with much the same player pool, after he had something of a Come to Jesus moment. That decision to give him a second chance was controversial here, but not among the players in either game.

In any case, I’ve since played with him several times in my own game, but mostly have sat with him in another game, hosted by one of my regs.

I’ve been watching him closely (see below), as have two other players who overlap in the two games. So far none of us have seen any recidivism.

His results have been bad overall. Quite bad. I’d estimate that he is down an average of about 1.5 buyins per session. This was someone who almost never had a losing session before he was caught/reformed.

He’s had roughly 3 winning sessions and 7 losing sessions out of the 10. One of the wins was big, but several of the losing nights were each bigger.

He has grown increasingly and vocally frustrated with how he’s running. In one session, he blew through 3.5 buyins in a couple of hours and left the game early in a huff... In the past he would stay to the bitter end every time.

He keeps bemoaning how “lucky” other people run against him, though I would characterize the “suckouts” he’s suffered as entirely within normal variance. (Someone calls him getting correct odds to draw to a flush or straight, and catches.) Others are just the kind of stuff we all see constantly in poker—he runs his JJ into someone else’s AA, or his QQ+ into someone else’s flopped set on a raggy board.

I feel like he’s somewhat in shock about how poker goes when you’re not cheating. That is a good lesson, as long as it does not bring about a relapse of wanting to cheat.

If anything, I’ve noticed the reformed cheat being ultra careful about his shuffles and deals. No side/overhand shuffles, no moving of cards to the top or bottom of the deck, none of his old patter about “It doesn’t matter if you cut, it’s all random,” etc.

One thing I’ve done whenever possible is to choose the seat to his right. This gives me a stellar view of his shuffles and deals. It also means that I handle the cards en route to him. When I shuffle, or when the deck is passed to me to cut, I’ve been holding onto it until the next hand is totally done, then pass it only when the table is clear to deal. This gives someone who wants to mess with the deck no time to do so.

He hasn’t expressed any impatience to get the cards in hand sooner, and hasn’t remarked on my tardiness. (I’ve played with plenty of guys who are always pushing for you to cut/pass, as if I didn’t know what to do.) It’s a small thing, but it seems like a good sign.

So yeah, it’s stupid that I have to even think about it. But it doesn’t take much of my headspace. And I can’t say I’m not quietly pleased to see the shark become the whale.
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This makes me happier than it should having never met the guy, but you do indeed love to see the karma :LOL: :laugh:

Makes me think of people who watch holdem on tv and think "i can do that" but then remember you don't get to see the other people's hands :ROFL: :ROFLMAO: "oh yeah this is much harder"
 
Taghkanic said:
Since cheating is again a big topic on PCF, I thought I’d update my situation FWIW.

I’ve now played 10 times with the repentent cheater who was caught in my game pre-pandemic.

He was allowed back more recently into both my game and another with much the same player pool, after he had something of a Come to Jesus moment. That decision to give him a second chance was controversial here, but not among the players in either game.

In any case, I’ve since played with him several times in my own game, but mostly have sat with him in another game, hosted by one of my regs.

I’ve been watching him closely (see below), as have two other players who overlap in the two games. So far none of us have seen any recidivism.

His results have been bad overall. Quite bad. I’d estimate that he is down an average of about 1.5 buyins per session. This was someone who almost never had a losing session before he was caught/reformed.

He’s had roughly 3 winning sessions and 7 losing sessions out of the 10. One of the wins was big, but several of the losing nights were each bigger.

He has grown increasingly and vocally frustrated with how he’s running. In one session, he blew through 3.5 buyins in a couple of hours and left the game early in a huff... In the past he would stay to the bitter end every time.

He keeps bemoaning how “lucky” other people run against him, though I would characterize the “suckouts” he’s suffered as entirely within normal variance. (Someone calls him getting correct odds to draw to a flush or straight, and catches.) Others are just the kind of stuff we all see constantly in poker—he runs his JJ into someone else’s AA, or his QQ+ into someone else’s flopped set on a raggy board.

I feel like he’s somewhat in shock about how poker goes when you’re not cheating. That is a good lesson, as long as it does not bring about a relapse of wanting to cheat.

If anything, I’ve noticed the reformed cheat being ultra careful about his shuffles and deals. No side/overhand shuffles, no moving of cards to the top or bottom of the deck, none of his old patter about “It doesn’t matter if you cut, it’s all random,” etc.

One thing I’ve done whenever possible is to choose the seat to his right. This gives me a stellar view of his shuffles and deals. It also means that I handle the cards en route to him. When I shuffle, or when the deck is passed to me to cut, I’ve been holding onto it until the next hand is totally done, then pass it only when the table is clear to deal. This gives someone who wants to mess with the deck no time to do so.

He hasn’t expressed any impatience to get the cards in hand sooner, and hasn’t remarked on my tardiness. (I’ve played with plenty of guys who are always pushing for you to cut/pass, as if I didn’t know what to do.) It’s a small thing, but it seems like a good sign.

So yeah, it’s stupid that I have to even think about it. But it doesn’t take much of my headspace. And I can’t say I’m not quietly pleased to see the shark become the whale.
Click to expand...
I see this going one of two ways.

Either #1, he continues to dump money, gets so pissed off, that he stops playing completely and moves on (hopefully stops, and not find another unconnected game that he can introduce his bullshit back in)

Or #2, gets so pissed off that he tries to sneak something in, and either gets caught immediately, and sent straight to hell LOLLOL, or doesn’t get caught right away, and runs good for a little while, gets bolder, and then gets caught and sent straight to hell

Ideally. #1 and quitting the game completely, though not for the stacks of the rest of the players.
 
Taghkanic said:
Since cheating is again a big topic on PCF, I thought I’d update my situation FWIW.

I’ve now played 10 times with the repentent cheater who was caught in my game pre-pandemic.

He was allowed back more recently into both my game and another with much the same player pool, after he had something of a Come to Jesus moment. That decision to give him a second chance was controversial here, but not among the players in either game.

In any case, I’ve since played with him several times in my own game, but mostly have sat with him in another game, hosted by one of my regs.

I’ve been watching him closely (see below), as have two other players who overlap in the two games. So far none of us have seen any recidivism.

His results have been bad overall. Quite bad. I’d estimate that he is down an average of about 1.5 buyins per session. This was someone who almost never had a losing session before he was caught/reformed.

He’s had roughly 3 winning sessions and 7 losing sessions out of the 10. One of the wins was big, but several of the losing nights were each bigger.

He has grown increasingly and vocally frustrated with how he’s running. In one session, he blew through 3.5 buyins in a couple of hours and left the game early in a huff... In the past he would stay to the bitter end every time.

He keeps bemoaning how “lucky” other people run against him, though I would characterize the “suckouts” he’s suffered as entirely within normal variance. (Someone calls him getting correct odds to draw to a flush or straight, and catches.) Others are just the kind of stuff we all see constantly in poker—he runs his JJ into someone else’s AA, or his QQ+ into someone else’s flopped set on a raggy board.

I feel like he’s somewhat in shock about how poker goes when you’re not cheating. That is a good lesson, as long as it does not bring about a relapse of wanting to cheat.

If anything, I’ve noticed the reformed cheat being ultra careful about his shuffles and deals. No side/overhand shuffles, no moving of cards to the top or bottom of the deck, none of his old patter about “It doesn’t matter if you cut, it’s all random,” etc.

One thing I’ve done whenever possible is to choose the seat to his right. This gives me a stellar view of his shuffles and deals. It also means that I handle the cards en route to him. When I shuffle, or when the deck is passed to me to cut, I’ve been holding onto it until the next hand is totally done, then pass it only when the table is clear to deal. This gives someone who wants to mess with the deck no time to do so.

He hasn’t expressed any impatience to get the cards in hand sooner, and hasn’t remarked on my tardiness. (I’ve played with plenty of guys who are always pushing for you to cut/pass, as if I didn’t know what to do.) It’s a small thing, but it seems like a good sign.

So yeah, it’s stupid that I have to even think about it. But it doesn’t take much of my headspace. And I can’t say I’m not quietly pleased to see the shark become the whale.
Click to expand...
I think it’s a great story - everybody is friends again and that’s a nice thing.

You should just fix a camera on him all night every night - lifetime penance is fair; it would keep him in check and relieve you of watching duties.
 
P.S. I have been toying with the idea of having a dealer for my game, having recently met two competent ones who will work just for tips. An added bonus would be an end to any concern about this guy falling off the wagon. My only reluctance is that my unraked game would go from 99% legal to questionable legality. Gotta nail down the applicable NYS laws, if they even speak clearly to that topic.
 
upNdown said:
I think it’s a great story - everybody is friends again and that’s a nice thing.

You should just fix a camera on him all night every night - lifetime penance is fair; it would keep him in check and relieve you of watching duties.
Click to expand...

I actually now have a camera over the table but didn’t even remember to activate it last time. TBH a dummy camera may be as effective as one that is recording.
 
TomC727 said:
I see this going one of two ways.

Either #1, he continues to dump money, gets so pissed off, that he stops playing completely and moves on (hopefully stops, and not find another unconnected game that he can introduce his bullshit back in)

Or #2, gets so pissed off that he tries to sneak something in, and either gets caught immediately, and sent straight to hell LOLLOL, or doesn’t get caught right away, and runs good for a little while, gets bolder, and then gets caught and sent straight to hell

Ideally. #1 and quitting the game completely, though not for the stacks of the rest of the players.
Click to expand...
There's another option. His run bad Karma starts to wane and he just becomes a regular average home game player who breaks even, and continues playing in the games with his friends.

@Taghkanic I assume since you didn't mention it that he has said nothing about any kind of restitution for his previous nefarious actions? And that all your other guys are okay with that?
 
Taghkanic said:
His results have been bad overall. Quite bad. I’d estimate that he is down an average of about 1.5 buyins per session.
Click to expand...

Taghkanic said:
He has grown increasingly and vocally frustrated with how he’s running. In one session, he blew through 3.5 buyins in a couple of hours and left the game early in a huff... In the past he would stay to the bitter end every time.
Click to expand...


AcceptableWhimsicalBullmastiff-max-1mb.gif
 
TomC727 said:
I see this going one of two ways.

Either #1, he continues to dump money, gets so pissed off, that he stops playing completely and moves on (hopefully stops, and not find another unconnected game that he can introduce his bullshit back in)

Or #2, gets so pissed off that he tries to sneak something in, and either gets caught immediately, and sent straight to hell LOLLOL, or doesn’t get caught right away, and runs good for a little while, gets bolder, and then gets caught and sent straight to hell

Ideally. #1 and quitting the game completely, though not for the stacks of the rest of the players.
Click to expand...
Option #3, he realizes it takes work to be good at poker and reads a book and studies up and becomes a winning player, straight up.
 
I might have him apologize and give him another chance. He didn't like to lose but you're also taking away his social life. Micro stakes make this easier to forgive i believe.
 

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