Mucking your hand (1 Viewer)

[shorticus]

Is a player allowed to muck his/her hand out of turn?

This has always irritated me when people do it because it gives information to other players in the hand who have yet to act. I've always thought that it was inconsiderate, but is it within the rules? What's so hard about holding your cards until it is your turn to act?

 

[Suited Connector]

You are not allowed to fold out of turn. Only the dealer can muck cards.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Nope. We do allow at our game if you need to use the restroom or get a call to leave and get auto-mucked, but by general rules, that's a Nope.

 

[EnjoyLife]

Just if they are running to the bathroom

 

[Mojo1312]

Only if it puts others on tilt. Otherwise, no.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

It’s highly frowned upon. That said, it happens from time to time. As there is no recourse there is little to be done. It does however usually stem from inattention caused by chatter which is then put to an end. It’s the no.1 reason we park our phones away from the table.

 

[shorticus]

In my home game, this guy does it cause he thinks it’s cool and cause he thinks that’s “what the pros do”. It’s actually just quite irritating and I have to tell him to stop at least once a night.

 

[Ringer3]

Yeah, I don't like it at all, but ive played at some home games where there are lots of regulars, and it gets done routinely, and those are raked games !
Needless to say, I don't play there any longer...

 

[Roll Tide Roll]

Absolutely not allowed.
If you can’t wait till your turn to take a piss, wear a diaper.

 

[trigs]

I don't like it but if a guy gets dealt a hand and doesn't want to play it and rather go to the washroom it's his right to just get up and leave the table. When it's his turn his hand is mucked automatically. So since that is technically legal for him to do, why try to stop him from just mucking it himself?

Personally I'll wait for my turn to fold.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I don't like it but if a guy gets dealt a hand and doesn't want to play it and rather go to the washroom it's his right to just get up and leave the table. When it's his turn his hand is mucked automatically. So since that is technically legal for him to do, why try to stop him from just mucking it himself?

My best guess here is that if you allow him to actively fold out of turn when he's leaving the table (instead of just leaving and being automatically folded) then you have to allow him to fold out of turn regardless of reason, e.g. thinking it's cool, or to continue discussing Game of Thrones, or whatever. Forbidding it covers all these other cases.

 

[WedgeRock]

As there is no recourse there is little to be done.

Um, warning followed by a rail penalty?

 

[1A25R]

A player fold his hand, only dealer muck cards
A player cannot act out of turn (folding is an act)
If the same player repeatably folds out of turn 1) explain the rules and why 2) give a warning 3) give a penalty 4) cut out from the game
Having a bunch of players playing with the same rules and following some poker etiquette is crucial for home games.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Pet peeve:
1) cutoff folds
2) donkey calling station in SB who has been an effective protection from people stealing my BB folds out of turn
3) button gets dollar signs in his eyes and raises
4) I chicken out from taking advantage of the situation and 3-betting, and fold like the wuss I am, then blaim it all on the out-of-turn-folding-donkey-idiot-from-northern-europe in SB

 

[trigs]

My best guess here is that if you allow him to actively fold out of turn when he's leaving the table (instead of just leaving and being automatically folded) then you have to allow him to fold out of turn regardless of reason, e.g. thinking it's cool, or to continue discussing Game of Thrones, or whatever. Forbidding it covers all these other cases.

I said I don't like it and I won't do it but I'm not going to forbid someone from pissing when they want to at a home game.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

Um, warning followed by a rail penalty?

I was referring to action IN the current hand.
There is a hammer in my shed for the knuckles of repeat offenders.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I said I don't like it and I won't do it but I'm not going to forbid someone from pissing when they want to at a home game.

Sorry for being unclear, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant or I misunderstood what you meant.

My point wasn't that you should forbid someone using the restroom. I think anyone should be able to leave when they want (preferably after they fold, but still). I was referring to your observation that if you're allowed to leave the table, why shouldn't you be allowed to fold first?

 

[sheikh617]

I don't like when players do it and I give verbal warnings when it happens to just be more considerate/attentive. That being said, I also don't want my home game to feel like a strict casino so I don't assess penalties or boot people for stuff like this because it'll usually happen pre flop when people are limping in and someone raises and people just start folding down the line. I know it still matters but its not like its a 3 way pot with $600 in the middle and someone jams and the player behind the active player folds out of turn which can REALLY change things lol.

 

[trigs]

Sorry for being unclear, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant or I misunderstood what you meant.

My point wasn't that you should forbid someone using the restroom. I think anyone should be able to leave when they want (preferably after they fold, but still). I was referring to your observation that if you're allowed to leave the table, why shouldn't you be allowed to fold first?

I don't think you should be allowed to fold out of turn but since you are allowed to get up and leave at any time and then have your hand mucked according to the rules afaik, which adds the same info as if someone mucked out of turn, I think it's too frustrating of an issue to spend time enforcing it.

I mean if someone really wants to muck out of turn they can just get up and pee or grab a beer or something. Same results either way and I can't punish them for it like I could consider doing if they muck out of turn.

I will ask people to wait for their turn to fold and if they keep doing it I'd probably just stop inviting them, but I don't want to make a rule at my home game since it's so easy to circumvent it.

 

[Imaduck]

If it's once in a blue moon preflop, I won't usually say anything.

If it's done postflop, or done regularly, I'll give a warning.

If it continues to happen, I'll give a penalty (either sit out some rounds or splash the next pot).

 

[JustinInMN]

Is a player allowed to muck his/her hand out of turn?

This has always irritated me when people do it because it gives information to other players in the hand who have yet to act. I've always thought that it was inconsiderate, but is it within the rules? What's so hard about holding your cards until it is your turn to act?

I think you asked and answered your own question. Now that said there is a degree of damage that should be recognized here. A player doing it preflop once or twice a night barely makes a difference. A guy that does in this spot instantly deserves some pushback.

https://www.pokernews.com/video/controversy-in-the-2019-world-series-of-poker-50k-11961.htm

(Edit, skip to 7:00 to see the hand in question.)

So I guess my point is the game is fine of this happens pre flop once in a while, and I would rather players that have to go just go instead of taking risks by holding it .

But that shouldn't happen more than once or twice. If it happens in big money spots later in hands, it really becomes a big deal and players are going to feel cheated.

 

[1A25R]

https://www.pokernews.com/video/controversy-in-the-2019-world-series-of-poker-50k-11961.htm

Interesting body language that denotes that the fold out of turn was intentional

 

[Frogzilla]

Folding out of turn can be an easy mistake to commit depending on how the player to your right keeps his cards. I try to be lenient/patient in those situations. If it is intentional then it’s fine to say something because it does affect action, and waiting ones turn isn’t THAT hard.

Only the dealer can muck cards.

A player fold his hand, only dealer muck cards

Not sure why you both think this, but it’s not true. “Muck” is a completely appropriate term for a player discarding his cards into the muck and is used as such in WSOP ruleset, PokerStars client, and a sizeable proportion of the poker community

 

[Mr Winberg]

Folding out of turn can be an easy mistake to commit depending on how the player to your right keeps his cards.

I agree. I think I scold the player who had his cards hidden in some way just as often as the one who acts out of turn.

 

[BGinGA]

“Muck” is a completely appropriate term for a player discarding his cards into the muck

Although a player should merely fold his hand, and let the dealer muck the cards. It is the dealer's job to control/protect the board cards, deck stub, and muck pile.

 

[1A25R]

Not sure why you both think this

As player you fold your hand, you lay down, you surrender the cards to the dealer, you give back the cards to the dealer.
The dealer take those cards and put them in the muck pile.

This is why I made a difference between fold and muck.

 

[JustinInMN]

I know I can get pedantic myself at times.

But really, this is what I think about the debate over whether or not "muck" is term applicable term for a player action.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don't like it but if a guy gets dealt a hand and doesn't want to play it and rather go to the washroom it's his right to just get up and leave the table. When it's his turn his hand is mucked automatically. So since that is technically legal for him to do, why try to stop him from just mucking it himself?

Getting up from the table is just body language. The hand isn't folded immediately, it is folded in turn. If the player leaves the table and comes back (say, during a long tank) his hand is still killed, but again, in turn.

In short, getting up is the same as holding your cards 1" above the felt with your thumb and middle finger, ready to fold. It's a massive tell, but not illegal. Folding (or any other action) out of turn is illegal.

Player needs to be warned, then penalized.

...'cause that's what the pros would do.

 

[Gobbs]

Actually, a player may not get up from the table and let his hand be auto-folded when it gets to his turn.

First, the TDA Rule is very clear that players may not leave the table with a live hand.

Second, players are responsible for protecting other players at the table and revealing your action out of turn does not do that. “Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.” is not allowed. This would clearly fall into the category of taking an action that can unfairly influence play, especially if done after some have acted and others have not.

So, the conclusion is simple. No, you can’t fold out of turn or leave your hand to be folded out of turn. (Only dealer mucks, despite the very common misuse of the term.)

 

[WedgeRock]

Second, players are responsible for protecting other players at the table and revealing your action out of turn does not do that.

Unrelated question: action on Player A in MP. Player A says, "Raise" and contemplates and amount. Upon hearing 'Raise' (but before an amount is announced), Player B folds.

Ruling?

IMO, it's technically improper. Action is not on Player B yet. Perhaps Player A is most afraid of Player B's stack size. Or Perhaps Player A is trying to size a bet to give certain pot odds and now knows Player B won't be coming along. Either situation gives Player A more information than he had, and can affect the size of the raise.

Do you raise the issue with the floor in a casino? Do you alert the floor and/or correct the issue in a home game. Is this such a minor point that it's not even worth addressing?