Tourney MTT ruling question (1 Viewer)

[Mike Wells]

Live MTT this evening.
Blinds are 20k-40k
UTG (1.4M) says "Make it 8", and then throws out 8 5k chips.
What is the bet?

 

[TheOffalo]

Hmm... I'd lean toward ruling that just a call/limp, since the verbalization is ambiguous but the chips equal the BB. If they meant to min-raise to 80k, I'd think they'd have said "Make it 80".

 

[CraigT78]

Live MTT this evening.
Blinds are 20k-40k
UTG (1.4M) says "Make it 8", and then throws out 8 5k chips.
What is the bet?

Is the 5k the lowest denom on the table? If so, and it's a home game, I'd let the bet stand. I'd warn the player that when announcing the value should be the total of the chips and not the count.

If the 5k was not the lowest chip on the table, it would be a limp.

 

[Frogzilla]

Binding raise to 8 myriad.

…just kidding. I think you have to force UTG to clarify, because the stated bet is nonsense. I’d just ask “Make it 8 ‘what’” before next player acts.

 

[Gunnar]

It is the lowest legal 8 bet, as the blinds are 20/40k the bet is 80k

 

[upNdown]

It is the lowest legal 8 bet, as the blinds are 20/40k the bet is 80k

Yeah but is 80k an 8 bet?
My mind says with these blinds “make it 8” should be interpreted as 800,000. And that doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense here either.
I think I’d call it a limp too, but I’d warn the guy not to say nonsense.

 

[Gunnar]

57: Non-Standard and Unclear Betting

Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended. Also, if a declared bet can legally have multiple meanings, it will be ruled the highest reasonable amount that is less than or equal to the pot size* before the bet. Ex: NLHE 200-400, the pot totals less than 5000, player declares “I bet five.” With no other clarifying information, the bet is 500; if the pot totals 5000 or more, the bet is 5000. *The pot is the total of all prior bets including any bets in front of a player not yet pulled in. See Rules 2, 3, 40 and 42.


Highest reasonable bet here is 80.000,
8.000 is not valid
800.000 is against the rule as the pot is just 60.000

 

[Gunnar]

Yeah but is 80k an 8 bet?
My mind says with these blinds “make it 8” should be interpreted as 800,000. And that doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense here either.
I think I’d call it a limp too, but I’d warn the guy not to say nonsense.

Let's make it 8, is a raise not limp so the intent to raise is clear in my opinion. If course native English speakers would always say lets make it 80 but poker is a universal game with multiple languages, with that in mind I would rule it as 80.000 rather than 800.000. ( 8 tens of thousands )

As the intention to raise is very clear here I'm never ruling this as a limp.

 

[Gunnar]

Just to add from TDA.

If you say anything that is a clear indication of a raise then it is binding. "Lets make it" is a general verbal deceleration for a raise.

51: Binding Declarations / Undercalls in Turn

A: General verbal declarations in turn (such as “call” or “raise”) commit a player to the full current action

 

[Poker Zombie]

I agree with Gunnar.

It is up to the player to make their intentions clear. If the player is unclear, they are subject to the decision of the TD.

I agree that "eight" being equated to "eighty" is a bit of a stretch, but "make it _____" sounds like a raise to me, so I'd rule a min-raise at the very least (80,000)

[Begin: Soapbox]
I will also add: to all those designing sets to look like the final table at the WSOP, where the lowest denom in the set is 10,000 - this is why those sets are stupid. Lots of zeroes that don't mean anything, and players are going to ignore when verbalizing bets only leads to confusion and errors.
[/soapbox]

 

[Taghkanic]

Since 8 was a number (way) less than the blinds, I would have made it a call.

And anyway, since 8 * 5,000 is 40K, it amounts to the same thing.

I’d warn the player to be more careful, as this type of bet might be interpreted as 800,000 next time, or treated as an angle resulting in a penalty.

 

[bigdonkey]

57: Non-Standard and Unclear Betting

Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended. Also, if a declared bet can legally have multiple meanings, it will be ruled the highest reasonable amount that is less than or equal to the pot size* before the bet. Ex: NLHE 200-400, the pot totals less than 5000, player declares “I bet five.” With no other clarifying information, the bet is 500; if the pot totals 5000 or more, the bet is 5000. *The pot is the total of all prior bets including any bets in front of a player not yet pulled in. See Rules 2, 3, 40 and 42.


Highest reasonable bet here is 80.000,
8.000 is not valid
800.000 is against the rule as the pot is just 60.000

"It will be ruled the highest reasonable amount that is less than or equal to the pot size.

80K is larger than the pot size (60k), and 8K is not a valid bet, so does that affect the applicable rule or ruling?

 

[BGinGA]

Live MTT this evening.
Blinds are 20k-40k
UTG (1.4M) says "Make it 8", and then throws out 8 5k chips.
What is the bet?

With 60k in the pot, the ambiguous "make it 8" verbal bet is a 40k call (which also happens to be the physical amount of chips placed forward after the statement).

Eight hundred, eight thousand, and eight hundred thousand (800, 8000, and 800,000) are all illegal amounts per the rules for these blinds and current pot size.

Also a warning to the player about making unclear verbal actions.

 

[BGinGA]

I think you have to force UTG to clarify, because the stated bet is nonsense. I’d just ask “Make it 8 ‘what’” before next player acts.

I'd agree if he hadn't already made a physical action after his nonsense statement. He did physically make it eight 5000 chips, or 40k.... which matches his verbal declaration.

 

[JustinInMN]

…just kidding. I think you have to force UTG to clarify, because the stated bet is nonsense. I’d just ask “Make it 8 ‘what’” before next player acts.

I would agree with that. If as the TD you can call time and correct without compromising anyone's action behind, that's the fairest approach. But absent that possibility, I agree with BG, these are the only bets starting with "8" that make any sense and two of them are clearly illegal.

Eight hundred, eight thousand, and eight hundred thousand (800, 8000, and 800,000) are all illegal amounts per the rules for these blinds and current pot size.

The third is way out of proportion to the pot. I get that "Eighty" is a legal bet, but I think it's a stretch to say that's the same thing as saying "eight."

So if for whatever reason it's not reasonable to give the actor a chance to correct, I think I am ruling a call here. He put out exactly amount for a call and made no clear verbal declaration indicating a legal amount.

Just to add from TDA.

If you say anything that is a clear indication of a raise then it is binding. "Lets make it" is a general verbal deceleration for a raise.

I am going to offer one counterexample. If the actor in question said "make it 40" I think 100% of the time this is going to be ruled a call at these blinds. So I am not as convinced as you that "let's make it" is automatically a raise, even though undoubtedly more than 99% of the time a legal amount follows that phrase.

So I do think call is the best ruling.

However, I think a raise to 80K ruling may be defensible on two possible fronts
1) "let's make it" does define raise as @Gunnar suggests and the raise must be to the minimum if the amount stated is unclear/illegal.)
2) "make it 8" intended to say "make in 80"

But anyone making an unclear statement should expect to be held to the lowest amount of action possible. A call is perfectly fair imo.

 

[Poker Zombie]

anyone making an unclear statement should expect to be held to the lowest amount of action possible. A call is perfectly fair imo.

I'd go as far as to say anyone making an unclear statement should expect to be held to any amount of action reasonable. Keep in mind the TD still has to try to keep the game fair - he's not out to penalize anyone for a gentle mistake (800,000 unreasonable).

As such, I still think I would make his bet 80,000, as "eight" sounds like it could be "eighty", and that sounds more likely than I said "eight" because I'm using 8 chips. Caveat: If the game is being played limit, in which case "eight" may be a legal bet of 40,000.

 

[Frogzilla]

Curious @Mike Wells …what did the player say he intended to bet?

 

[ArielVer18]

Ooo! Fun question. Someone recently tried to pull this at my game thinking he found a loophole in the poker rules.

TDA Rule 57 is relatively new because modern poker rules no longer wait for the player to explain their intention. Given the blinds and the current pot size, most floor will rule the "make it 8" statement as 80,000 and a verbal warning that players are responsible for making their intentions clear and using non-standard terms or gestures is at player’s risk and may result in a ruling other than what the player intended.

 

[Mike Wells]

Curious @Mike Wells …what did the player say he intended to bet?

He didn't. Older guy...barely spoke at all. Seemed very confused about chips amounts, etc. Of course that's the guy who busts me.
Floor ruled it a min-raise. He's a newer floor. Not TDA certified. We talked about it afterwards and he agreed that a call made more sense. Didn't affect the action either way. I was always shoving my 10 BB with 77 and he was always calling with QJ.
Given some of the hands he had raised with earlier...he probably meant to raise.

 

[Gunnar]

Fair for the player and fair for the table are not always the same thing. As floors we must enforce the rules regardless of tournament size or buy-in amount.

When a player make indication that he is raising then he can get a lot of info if he is looking at the other players. That is why I would rule it as a raise but keep it as fair of a raise as possible within the rules.

This is a rule that is meant to be enforced so players can not go around telling vague things and get free info to adjust accordingly

 

[upNdown]

Fair for the player and fair for the table are not always the same thing. As floors we must enforce the rules regardless of tournament size or buy-in amount.

When a player make indication that he is raising then he can get a lot of info if he is looking at the other players. That is why I would rule it as a raise but keep it as fair of a raise as possible within the rules.

This is a rule that is meant to be enforced so players can not go around telling vague things and get free info to adjust accordingly

I’m getting persuaded.
What if he was being a funny guy and he said “make it . . . Forty!”
I wouldn’t want to let him get away with that. And I’m not sure how what happened is much different. I’m thinking min-raise

 

[Gunnar]

I’m getting persuaded.
What if he was being a funny guy and he said “make it . . . Forty!”
I wouldn’t want to let him get away with that. And I’m not sure how what happened is much different. I’m thinking min-raise

Make it forty without a pause is just a call, if floor is called then I would warn/ask the player to be obvious in their verbal communication. Next offence is a warning and third a penalty for trying to create misunderstanding at the table about the current bet size.

Make it … forty, is a min raise and a warning for funny business. Next offence is a penalty.

Make it 50, 60, 70 is all rounded up to a min raise and explained for the player what the minimum raise is. Next offence is a warning.

 

[Gunnar]

PS, my tournament flooring experience is in a highly competitive setting where rules are enforced hard. Venues and Casinos usually set their own lines in some of these rulings, as players having fun are more likely to spend more at the bar. Patience for funny business is very different between floors and locations is all that I’m saying.

I don’t throw out warnings and penalties in home games for example unless it is clearly needed.

 

[BGinGA]

Make it forty without a pause is just a call, if floor is called then I would warn/ask the player to be obvious in their verbal communication. Next offence is a warning and third a penalty for trying to create misunderstanding at the table

Make it … forty, is a min raise and a warning for funny business. Next offence is a penalty.

I strongly disagree.

If he said, "Make it...... 100 with a pause, there would be no question, no warning, and no penalty -- he's simply deciding on his bet size amount, no funny business whatsoever (it could have been 80, 200, or all-in). And there's not any funny business with him deciding to stick with just a 40 call amount either, or even a fold: "Make it..... a fold.", tossing in his cards instead of chips.

The term "Make it..." means nothing, until it's paired with something else that provides clarification.

Only problem here is that "8" failed to provide said clarity. But his physical action did.

 

[Gunnar]

I strongly disagree.

If he said, "Make it...... 100 with a pause, there would be no question, no warning, and no penalty -- he's simply deciding on his bet size amount, no funny business whatsoever (it could have been 80, 200, or all-in). And there's not any funny business with him deciding to stick with just a 40 call amount either, or even a fold: "Make it..... a fold.", tossing in his cards instead of chips.

The term "Make it..." means nothing, until it's paired with something else that provides clarification.

Only problem here is that "8" failed to provide said clarity. But his physical action did.

What if he was being a funny guy and he said “make it . . . Forty!”

I assumed all could see the he was trying to be funny not just thinking

 

[DoubleEagle]

In my experience, I have never heard a player say "make it" without intending to raise.

 

[Rodog123]

This is very interesting convo. I see both sides but have to say 'Make it...' implies a raise. I would definitely mention to him next time he needs to be clearer on bet amount.

 

[Poker Zombie]

This is very interesting convo. I see both sides but have to say 'Make it...' implies a raise. I would definitely mention to him next time he needs to be clearer on bet amount.

After even more thought, I can't agree more.

Yes, the proper term is "Raise", but lots of words that are not "Raise" mean raise, regardless of the actual word used.

• Let's make it...
• Bump it up...
• Increase it...
• I'll bet even more
• Double that

Once you use any of these terms, you must accept the house ruling. If the other players (or preferably a dedicated dealer) thought it was a raise, it's a raise.

 

[Motobaka]

I think I would also consider it a raise and would instruct the player to make a min raise.
"Make it" is to me, almost the same as if he had said raise.