Morals, ethics, legalities or hardcore chip harvesting. (10 Viewers)

turboj623 said:
In my experience, if there was a serious issue about people harvesting chips, policies would be put in place to prevent it. Trust me, there were some dumbass policies created for the weirdest things. Legally I haven't found anything in the NRS Codes and Nevada Gaming Commission Statutes that deem harvesting illegal. I reached out to an old co-worker who is now a director of security at three properties and he just laughed at my question. He said he wasn't aware of any policies about it but would check on it when he gets a chance. But he is a busy guy and i"m not going to hold my breath for an answer. Unless someone can find the NRS code, I would worry about it.

When it comes to morals and ethics, well that is different for every person and it is up to you to decide if that violates your moral and ethical standards.
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Just call the NGC and ask:

a) is it okay to remove large numbers of live casino cash checks from casino property with no intent to return?

b) is it okay for a casino to sell me their live casino cash checks for my use outside of the casino?

The NCB is all about the protection and integrity of casino currency, and it has a lot of regulations in place surrounding the issue -- some directed at regulated casinos, others pertaining to those individuals that frequent them.

They won't even allow casinos to sell obsolete and valueless retired used chips to the general public. I'm sure they have no problem with casinos selling live checks for use outside the casino property. /sarcasm off/

You want the truth? Go to the source. Ask 'em what a NGC agent will/would/should do if they observe a casino employee actively assisting a patron attempting to remove live casino checks from the premises.
 
turboj623 said:
Unless someone can find the NRS code about it, I would worry about it.
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Relevant to the discussion is 1, 2c, 2d, and possibly 4.

12.060 Use of chips and tokens.

1. Chips and tokens are solely representatives of value which evidence a debt owed to their custodian by the licensee that issued them and are not the property of anyone other than that licensee

2. A licensee that uses chips or tokens at its gaming establishment shall:
  • (a) Comply with all applicable statutes, regulations, and policies of Nevada and of the United States pertaining to chips or tokens;
  • (b) Issue chips and tokens only to patrons of its gaming establishment and only at their request;
  • (c) Except as otherwise provided herein, promptly redeem its own chips and tokens from its patrons by cash or check drawn on an account of the licensee;
  • (d) Post conspicuous signs at its establishment notifying patrons that federal law prohibits the use of the licensee’s tokens, that state law prohibits the use of the licensee’s chips, outside the establishment for any monetary purpose whatever, and that the chips and tokens issued by the licensee are the property of the licensee, only; and
  • (e) Take reasonable steps, including examining chips and tokens and segregating those issued by other licensees to prevent the issuance to its patrons of chips and tokens issued by another licensee.
3. A licensee shall not accept chips or tokens as payment for any goods or services offered at the licensee’s gaming establishment with the exception of the specific use for which the chips or tokens were issued, and shall not give chips or tokens as change in any other transaction.

4. A licensee shall not redeem its chips or tokens if presented by a person who the licensee knows or reasonably should know did not obtain the chips or tokens directly and lawfully from the licensee’s gaming establishment, except that a licensee shall promptly redeem its chips and tokens if presented by:
  • (a) Another licensee who represents that it redeemed the chips and tokens from its patrons or received them unknowingly, inadvertently, or unavoidably;
  • (b) An employee of the licensee who presents the chips and tokens in the normal course of employment; or
  • (c) A person engaged in the business of collecting from licensees chips and tokens issued by other licensees and presenting them to the issuing licensees for redemption.
5. A licensee may redeem its chips and tokens if presented by an agent of the Board in the performance of the agent’s official duties or on behalf of another governmental agency.

6. A licensee shall not knowingly issue, use, permit the use of, or redeem chips or tokens issued by another licensee, except as follows:
  • (a) A licensee may redeem tokens issued by another licensee if:
    • (1) The tokens are presented by a patron for redemption to a cashier of the licensee’s gaming establishment or, in the case of a location having slot machines operated by a licensed operator of a slot machine route, if a patron presents them to the operator’s employee at the location; or
    • (2) The tokens are presented by a patron at a table game; and
    • (3) The licensee redeems the tokens with tokens of its own, separates and properly accounts for the redeemed tokens during the count performed pursuant to the licensee’s system of internal control required by Regulation 6, and places the redeemed tokens in the table’s drop box, if redeemed at a table game; and
  • (b) A licensee may redeem chips issued by another licensee if:
    • (1) The chips are presented by a patron for redemption at the cashier’s cage of the licensee’s gaming establishment;
    • (2) The chips are presented by a patron at a table game, and the licensee redeems the chips with chips of its own, places the redeemed chips in the table’s drop box, and separates and properly accounts for the redeemed chips during the count performed pursuant to the licensee’s system of internal control submitted pursuant to Regulation 6.050 or 6.060; or
    • (3) The chips are presented by a patron as payment on a race, pari-mutuel, or sports wager to a book located on the premises of the licensee which issued the chips; and
  • (c) An operator of a slot machine route or its employee may redeem tokens that are issued by the operator for use at another location.
7. Chips whose use is restricted to uses other than at table games or other than at specified table games may be redeemed by the issuing licensee at table games or non-specified table games if the chips are presented by a patron, and the licensee redeems the chips with chips issued for use at the game, places the redeemed chips in the table’s drop box, and separates and properly accounts for the redeemed chips during the count performed pursuant to the licensee’s system of internal control required by Regulation 6.

8. Tokens may be used only at gaming establishments operated by persons holding nonrestricted gaming licenses, including restricted locations at which gaming devices are operated by licensed operators of slot machine routes.

(Adopted: 6/87. Amended: 8/88; 12/91; 2/94; 11/10; 08/14; 1/21.)

source: Page 4, https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=17488
 
Perthmike said:
You literally joined this forum so that you could set up a business venture harvesting chips. You've not even been here for a year. You must be up there as the guy on the most block lists.

You basically represent everything that killed this hobby. Just some faceless clown high all day long posting sales pitches about your harvested chips.
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I don’t see how the increased availability of live chips killed the hobby.
 
Edit: Deleted, because this seems to be a personal beef and I don't want anyone to think I have a "side" in someone else's fight.
 
Last edited:
have-a-good-day-alright.gif


That's all I got to say
 
Don’t tell the NGC or NCB or NAGBGB I’ve had two LV cage managers (granted they were helping open MA locations) actively help me in harvesting including offering me sturdier casino branded bags and extra chip racks to cover the top racks so the chips were more secure when walking to my car :ninja:. Ftr both were great guys!
 
cpiaaq said:
Relevant to the discussion is 1, 2c, 2d, and possibly 4.

12.060 Use of chips and tokens.

1. Chips and tokens are solely representatives of value which evidence a debt owed to their custodian by the licensee that issued them and are not the property of anyone other than that licensee

2. A licensee that uses chips or tokens at its gaming establishment shall:
  • (a) Comply with all applicable statutes, regulations, and policies of Nevada and of the United States pertaining to chips or tokens;
  • (b) Issue chips and tokens only to patrons of its gaming establishment and only at their request;
  • (c) Except as otherwise provided herein, promptly redeem its own chips and tokens from its patrons by cash or check drawn on an account of the licensee;
  • (d) Post conspicuous signs at its establishment notifying patrons that federal law prohibits the use of the licensee’s tokens, that state law prohibits the use of the licensee’s chips, outside the establishment for any monetary purpose whatever, and that the chips and tokens issued by the licensee are the property of the licensee, only; and
  • (e) Take reasonable steps, including examining chips and tokens and segregating those issued by other licensees to prevent the issuance to its patrons of chips and tokens issued by another licensee.
3. A licensee shall not accept chips or tokens as payment for any goods or services offered at the licensee’s gaming establishment with the exception of the specific use for which the chips or tokens were issued, and shall not give chips or tokens as change in any other transaction.

4. A licensee shall not redeem its chips or tokens if presented by a person who the licensee knows or reasonably should know did not obtain the chips or tokens directly and lawfully from the licensee’s gaming establishment, except that a licensee shall promptly redeem its chips and tokens if presented by:
  • (a) Another licensee who represents that it redeemed the chips and tokens from its patrons or received them unknowingly, inadvertently, or unavoidably;
  • (b) An employee of the licensee who presents the chips and tokens in the normal course of employment; or
  • (c) A person engaged in the business of collecting from licensees chips and tokens issued by other licensees and presenting them to the issuing licensees for redemption.
5. A licensee may redeem its chips and tokens if presented by an agent of the Board in the performance of the agent’s official duties or on behalf of another governmental agency.

6. A licensee shall not knowingly issue, use, permit the use of, or redeem chips or tokens issued by another licensee, except as follows:
  • (a) A licensee may redeem tokens issued by another licensee if:
    • (1) The tokens are presented by a patron for redemption to a cashier of the licensee’s gaming establishment or, in the case of a location having slot machines operated by a licensed operator of a slot machine route, if a patron presents them to the operator’s employee at the location; or
    • (2) The tokens are presented by a patron at a table game; and
    • (3) The licensee redeems the tokens with tokens of its own, separates and properly accounts for the redeemed tokens during the count performed pursuant to the licensee’s system of internal control required by Regulation 6, and places the redeemed tokens in the table’s drop box, if redeemed at a table game; and
  • (b) A licensee may redeem chips issued by another licensee if:
    • (1) The chips are presented by a patron for redemption at the cashier’s cage of the licensee’s gaming establishment;
    • (2) The chips are presented by a patron at a table game, and the licensee redeems the chips with chips of its own, places the redeemed chips in the table’s drop box, and separates and properly accounts for the redeemed chips during the count performed pursuant to the licensee’s system of internal control submitted pursuant to Regulation 6.050 or 6.060; or
    • (3) The chips are presented by a patron as payment on a race, pari-mutuel, or sports wager to a book located on the premises of the licensee which issued the chips; and
  • (c) An operator of a slot machine route or its employee may redeem tokens that are issued by the operator for use at another location.
7. Chips whose use is restricted to uses other than at table games or other than at specified table games may be redeemed by the issuing licensee at table games or non-specified table games if the chips are presented by a patron, and the licensee redeems the chips with chips issued for use at the game, places the redeemed chips in the table’s drop box, and separates and properly accounts for the redeemed chips during the count performed pursuant to the licensee’s system of internal control required by Regulation 6.

8. Tokens may be used only at gaming establishments operated by persons holding nonrestricted gaming licenses, including restricted locations at which gaming devices are operated by licensed operators of slot machine routes.

(Adopted: 6/87. Amended: 8/88; 12/91; 2/94; 11/10; 08/14; 1/21.)

source: Page 4, https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=17488
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I read that statute and that appears to more or less cover the use of the chips as legal tender for common transactions outside of the property. That would be in violation of federal law which is a big issue. The gaming commission has similar literature about it as well. It still doesn't clearly line out to me that one cannot take the chips off the premise. It just clearly states that you must purchase and cash om the tokens from the licensee. I'm sure someone with a legal background can decipher it better than me, but that is what I get from that.
 
(d) Post conspicuous signs at its establishment notifying patrons that federal law prohibits the use of the licensee’s tokens, that state law prohibits the use of the licensee’s chips, outside the establishment for any monetary purpose whatever, and that the chips and tokens issued by the licensee are the property of the licensee, only

I have never seen a sign indicating this.

The wording is also very awkward and seems to go even further than what I assume it’s actually trying to say.

I would be interested to see what law(s) they’re referring to actually says
 
Stufflymcstuff said:
(d) Post conspicuous signs at its establishment notifying patrons that federal law prohibits the use of the licensee’s tokens, that state law prohibits the use of the licensee’s chips, outside the establishment for any monetary purpose whatever, and that the chips and tokens issued by the licensee are the property of the licensee, only

I have never seen a sign indicating this.

The wording is also very awkward and seems to go even further than what I assume it’s actually trying to say.

I would be interested to see what law(s) they’re referring to actually says
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It's probably a very small sign they are required to post somewhere. The next time you are in Vegas, walk around the casino and look at the walls. You will laugh at what you might see.
 
turboj623 said:
I read that statute and that appears to more or less cover the use of the chips as legal tender for common transactions outside of the property. That would be in violation of federal law which is a big issue. The gaming commission has similar literature about it as well. It still doesn't clearly line out to me that one cannot take the chips off the premise. It just clearly states that you must purchase and cash om the tokens from the licensee. I'm sure someone with a legal background can decipher it better than me, but that is what I get from that.
Click to expand...

selling the chips, if we’re being technical, isn’t using it as currency. If the buyers chooses to use it as a check in their $20 home game though, we can hardly blame god fearing harvesters for what those kinds of godless heathens are willing to do.
 
Stufflymcstuff said:
selling the chips, if we’re being technical, isn’t using it as currency. If the buyers chooses to use it as a check in their $20 home game though, we can hardly blame god fearing harvesters for what those kinds of godless heathens are willing to do.
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If they're not the property of anybody other than the casino, then how can a harvester legally sell them?
Seems like more of a civil issue than a criminal one, but the language seems pretty clear. If you buy chips from a harvester, you do not have clear title to the chips, because they're still the property of the casino.
 
turboj623 said:
I read that statute and that appears to more or less cover the use of the chips as legal tender for common transactions outside of the property. That would be in violation of federal law which is a big issue. The gaming commission has similar literature about it as well. It still doesn't clearly line out to me that one cannot take the chips off the premise. It just clearly states that you must purchase and cash om the tokens from the licensee. I'm sure someone with a legal background can decipher it better than me, but that is what I get from that.
Click to expand...
I agree with this reading and your post. (I am not a lawyer and have no relevant subject matter expertise here)
 
upNdown said:
If they're not the property of anybody other than the casino, then how can a harvester legally sell them?
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They probably can't, but I believe that literally no one cares.

upNdown said:
Seems like more of a civil issue than a criminal one, but the language seems pretty clear. If you buy chips from a harvester, you do not have clear title to the chips, because they're still the property of the casino.
Click to expand...
I agree with this analysis, but again I believe that literally no one cares.
 
CrazyEddie said:
They probably can't, but I believe that literally no one cares.


I agree with this analysis, but again I believe that literally no one cares.
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It's a conversation about morals, ethics, and legalities. If you can't transfer legal title to the chips in question, that seems relevant to the question of legality, whether or not anybody cares. But I get your point. It's probably more appropriate to say "a lot of people don't care." I certainly don't. But it's an interesting discussion.
 
Say I get $500K worth of chips from the cage at a casino, and walk out with them.

I put them in play on a yacht where I’m running an offshore casino.

Then the yacht sinks… with all the chips on board.

This would be awesome for the casino, right?

Unless I took all 500K in fracs, they make a tidy profit on pretty much every other denom… More than enough to cover replacement cost.

No harm, no foul.


P.S.: Y’all might want to buy some scuba gear
 
Stufflymcstuff said:
I have never seen a sign indicating this.
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I have a picture of one of the signs, posted on the left side of a 50-foot wide strip-facing casino entrance. I can't find it though :rolleyes: It was maybe 6 inches square, white with black lettering.

Here are the Nevada laws that cover chips. There isn't much there except regarding counterfeits. tldr: Its illegal to modify a chip for the purposes of breaking the law.
 

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