Tourney Matt Savage’s recent blog post on big blind antes (2 Viewers)

[Poker Zombie]

Do you listen to poker stories or thinking poker podcasts? Every pro I’ve heard has said BBA is the future. It’s not just one guy.

Maybe this is the problem. Pros love it. Amateurs... the word is still silent.

Amateur players are more likely to play on short stacks. and they will hang around with 10 BB for 10 orbits. The short-stacked amateur is going to run into the BBA problems far more often. If this turns away amateur players, then the BBA can be nothing but terrible for the future of poker.

New players are the future of poker.

 

[Gobbs]

If I have learned anything in my @# years in life, it's that solutions should address the cause of a problem, not the symptoms. So, let's define the problem and cause.

The Problem: Games drag and slow down when players do not post their antes or post them timely. That's pretty easy to define.
The Cause: Matt Savage and casinos would have you believe it is that players do not pay attention and cause issues. While this is true, I do not believe it is the actual cause of the problem 95 percent of the time. I contend the actual cause is that dealers are not controlling the tables and doing their jobs.

The dealing procedure is for the dealer to shuffle (riffle, riffle, box, riffle), place the deck in front of him/her with the cut card behind it, collect the antes, cut the cards with one hand onto the cut card, and begin pitching the cards to the players. My bet is, dealers who have a problem with players not posting their antes are not reminding players to put their antes in front of them while shuffling. This is the key. If the dealer waits until he/she collects the antes to pay attention and say something, yes, it can become a problem. If the dealer is watching the table and reminds players to ante (and encourages the players to put their antes within reach of the dealer and in the same place every time) while shuffling, collecting the antes takes three to four seconds. When I deal, I consider collecting the antes a slight break every hand to catch my breath before having to concentrate again. In addition, if the dealer is doing his/her job and a player is just not paying attention and just refuses to listen/comply with a dealer timely, the TD needs to do something about it.

Overall, the solution should address the cause. Therefore, the solution should be better training for dealers so that they can better control the table. I bet, if they look into it, the dealers who have problems with players not posting their antes also tend to have more problems, in general. To me, defining the cause as the players is dealers and TDs passing the buck and not doing their jobs.

Now, having said all this, I know this doesn't apply to home games without a designated dealer. So, my suggestion is, if you don't have a designated dealer who can control a table and properly collect antes, don't have antes.

 

[JustinInMN]

I don't see how blame the dealers is really any better than give the dealers one less thing to do as far as improving performance.

 

[BGinGA]

If the number of hands played and eliminating dealer responsibility are truely the desired outcomes, then just eliminate them completely.

Run all big tournaments -- with a bba, if desired -- on electronic poker tables. Auto shot clocks, no dealer errors, auto-posting of blinds and antes, allows more hands per hour -- hey, it fixes everything.

 

[Poker Zombie]

If the number of hands played and eliminating dealer responsibility are truely the desired outcomes, then just eliminate them completely.

Run all big tournaments -- with a bba, if desired -- on electronic poker tables. Auto shot clocks, no dealer errors, auto-posting of blinds and antes, allows more hands per hour -- hey, it fixes everything.

You forgot the winky-face... WINKY-FACE!!!

 

[Gobbs]

I don't see how blame the dealers is really any better than give the dealers one less thing to do as far as improving performance.

It's not "blame the dealer" as much as it is "train the dealer." I don't think it's a giant leap to say a dealer who effectively controls the table is far faster than one who does not. So, training a dealer to effectively manage the table is a far better solution because....

A) You're not giving the dealers one less thing to do, you are only giving them something that's a little easier to do and supposedly faster to do at the (debatable) potential expense of the players, and
B) Giving the dealers something simpler to do in this one case is not addressing the overall cause that the dealer is probably just not very good and needs to be better trained to handle all the leaks in his/her skills. If collecting antes is a leak for the dealer, it is extremely likely there are other problems with the dealer's skill set, especially table control, that is also slowing the pace of the game. I would be willing to bet a bad dealer with a BBA table is still slower than a good dealer with a regular ante. I'd be very interested to see dealers' overall evaluation ratings factored into the equation.

So, while you solved one small problem with BBA, you didn't address the cause and address the overall problem of slower-paced games effectively - just one aspect of it. You killed one ant on the table with your finger, but you still have an ant problem because you didn't kill the other ten ants on the table with an effective ant killer.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Unfortunately, training the dealer isn't a realistic option for TDs of major events. The WSOP draws in dealers from across the country, and I suspect other major events do as well. The TD gets whomever they get, and from experience, I can tell you that they are not all the cream of the crop.

 

[DoubleEagle]

WSOP dealers can sometimes be horrendous.

 

[Poker Zombie]

WSOP dealers can sometimes be horrendous.

One that I talked to said that she doesn't even deal regularly. She flys in to the WSOP, deals for 2 months, then goes back home. That is the only time she deals.

Of course I could talk to her about dealers and experience, because she was one of the better dealers. It smashed my expectations that the WSOP would draw in the best from Caesars properties, worldwide.

 

[Gobbs]

Unfortunately, training the dealer isn't a realistic option for TDs of major events. The WSOP draws in dealers from across the country, and I suspect other major events do as well. The TD gets whomever they get, and from experience, I can tell you that they are not all the cream of the crop.

...and now you just put your finger on the problem. The dealers are not trained to handle the situation they are in and instead of doing something about that, they are using patchwork to fix one small problem and not the big problem. The NFL had the same problem with their referees a few years ago and finally decided to make the position a full-time job. Yes, it cost the NFL more, but the referees got better.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Sadly, "cost more" is not an acceptable option for the accountants.

 

[Gobbs]

Sadly, "cost more" is not an acceptable option for the accountants.

I'm an accountant....it is always an acceptable option, if justified.

 

[ekricket]

WSOP dealers can sometimes be horrendous.

I played one of the WSOP (10 pm) daily deepstacks that had a BB ante. The starting blinds were 50/100. The dealer told the Big Blind they needed to post the ante for the entire table, which was another 100 chip. So they threw out the chip, and the dealer said “no, it’s 100 per player”. So he (the Dealer) thought that the first hand we played was a 50/100/1000 in a tournament where you started with 3000 chips. This was in June, when they had been playing these for a month.

We argued it was dumb, he persisted, and he finally called the floor over, and he got straightened out, after running 8 minutes off the 10 minute blind level.

Disgusting.

 

[Wils]

Fuck antes.

That is all.

 

[WedgeRock]

So he (the Dealer) thought that the first hand we played was a 50/100/1000 in a tournament where you started with 3000 chips. This was in June, when they had been playing these for a month.

We argued it was dumb, he persisted, and he finally called the floor over, and he got straightened out, after running 8 minutes off the 10 minute blind level.

I liked your post because it was an interesting story. I hate the story, but that's not your fault.

 

[moose]

First, hogwash. Name a "great" poker player who has fired five bullets in a single tournament. You can't. Then you proceed to complain about having a player to your left who loved burning money. How horrible! What a cruel fate! Sounds like the "kid" pushed his edge to the limit by RESHOVING against you with his suited 3, 6! . Glad to hear you defied the odds and came out okay.

Second, casinos don't rake re-buys.

Third, you brilliantly sum up how all of the above gives an "edge to players who already have an edge." A claim devoid of any cogent reasoning.

Mike Watson@SirWatts
https://twitter.com/SirWatts/status/984578811432927234

Barcelona update: 4 bullets in high rollers and 5 bullets in the main event later I have made no day 2s and never reached twice starting stack. I did cash the 2500 for 8k.

Canada Michael Watson 'SirWatts'
TOTAL LIVE EARNINGS $11,167,774
BEST LIVE CASH$1,673,770
ALL TIME MONEY LIST 57th

Nationality:Canada St. John's, NL, Canada

Canada All Time Money List 6th

1stCanadaDaniel Negreanu$ 39,656,197
2ndCanadaJonathan Duhamel$ 17,984,568
3rdCanadaMike McDonald$ 13,275,943
4thCanadaSam Greenwood$ 12,756,974
5thCanadaSorel Mizzi$ 11,953,660
6thCanadaMichael Watson$ 11,166,509

 

[ekricket]

I like cookies....... and turtles!

 

[Mojo1312]

Mike Watson@SirWatts

Barcelona update: 4 bullets in high rollers and 5 bullets in the main event later I have made no day 2s and never reached twice starting stack. I did cash the 2500 for 8k.

Canada Michael Watson 'SirWatts'
TOTAL LIVE EARNINGS $11,167,774
BEST LIVE CASH$1,673,770
ALL TIME MONEY LIST 57th

Nationality:Canada St. John's, NL, Canada

Canada All Time Money List 6th

1stCanadaDaniel Negreanu$ 39,656,197
2ndCanadaJonathan Duhamel$ 17,984,568
3rdCanadaMike McDonald$ 13,275,943
4thCanadaSam Greenwood$ 12,756,974
5thCanadaSorel Mizzi$ 11,953,660
6thCanadaMichael Watson$ 11,166,509

I will be eating crow for breakfast.

 

[fieldsy]

Okay, now here is a Big Blind Ante that I wholeheartedly oppose. No antes in PLO, please.

https://www.commercecasino.com/app/uploads/2018/08/CPS2018-Structure-10.pdf

 

[ekricket]

Okay, now here is a Big Blind Ante that I wholeheartedly oppose. No antes in PLO, please.

https://www.commercecasino.com/app/uploads/2018/08/CPS2018-Structure-10.pdf

Hmm, so when blinds are 100/200 and it folds around to the small blind and he pots. So he makes it 600, and now the B.B. has to call 400 into a pot total of 1000.

 

[fieldsy]

Hmm, so when blinds are 100/200 and it folds around to the small blind and he pots. So he makes it 600, and now the B.B. has to call 400 into a pot total of 1000.

Yes. They aren't counting the ante as part of the pot for bet limit purposes preflop, which means by design you are pumping up the pot odds for players to get in preflop. Does PLO really need that? Talk about a solution in search of a problem.

 

[BGinGA]

Yeah, sorta goes against the entire purpose of using antes (of any kind) to start with.

Point-in-case of Savage shoving this down players' throats even when it's ill-advised or totally unneeded.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I'm confused...

The info box indicates a BB Ante, but the blind structure doesn't indicate that there is an ante.

Which are we to assume?

1. The BB Ante is the same as the BB, and thus starts at level 1
2. Every sheet has the same format, and they just didn't take out the BB ante Box
3. Matt Savage is incapable of paying attention to details, despite heading a top level tournament

 

[DoubleEagle]

I'm confused...

The info box indicates a BB Ante, but the blind structure doesn't indicate that there is an ante.

Which are we to assume?

1. The BB Ante is the same as the BB, and thus starts at level 1
2. Every sheet has the same format, and they just didn't take out the BB ante Box
3. Matt Savage is incapable of paying attention to details, despite heading a top level tournament

I suspect #2.

 

[fieldsy]

I'm confused...

The info box indicates a BB Ante, but the blind structure doesn't indicate that there is an ante.

Which are we to assume?

1. The BB Ante is the same as the BB, and thus starts at level 1
2. Every sheet has the same format, and they just didn't take out the BB ante Box
3. Matt Savage is incapable of paying attention to details, despite heading a top level tournament

The box says the BBA is the same as the BB. It's not a carryover from a NLH sheet (which was my initial thought too), you can tell because the box says specifically that the BBA is not included as part of the pot preflop (which would not be a hold'em rule). Plus there was a PokerNews tweet saying they're using antes in every PLO tournament in this Commerce series.

 

[glom]

Yeah, sorta goes against the entire purpose of using antes (of any kind) to start with.

Point-in-case of Savage shoving this down players' throats even when it's ill-advised or totally unneeded.

Shoving this down the throats of players who seem to universally like it. I’ve still not seen any substantive criticism and I’ve seen tons of substantive praise in the context of holdem at least.

 

[Poker Zombie]

This thread is full of substantive criticisms.

It has faults. Those faults don't "break" the game because pros are unlikely to encounter them. They are accepted because people don't like to be bothered with paying antes every hand, when they can be doing something more useful, like Tweeting, Facebooking, or texting. Since social media activities are kinda paramount in a professional's career, the pros love it.

I suspect that some amateurs also like it. Less posting of antes, less making of change.

New players are the ones I'm concerned with. A change that discourages new players is bad for the game.

 

[glom]

This thread is full of substantive criticisms.

It has faults. Those faults don't "break" the game because pros are unlikely to encounter them. They are accepted because people don't like to be bothered with paying antes every hand, when they can be doing something more useful, like Tweeting, Facebooking, or texting. Since social media activities are kinda paramount in a professional's career, the pros love it.

I suspect that some amateurs also like it. Less posting of antes, less making of change.

New players are the ones I'm concerned with. A change that discourages new players is bad for the game.

The only complaints in this thread seem to mostly be from people who have never played it, with only one exception, and the biggest concern is it’ll turn away amateurs, which is total speculation.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Most of the complaints have been from @BGinGA, who has, in fact, played it.

I have no complaints, and have pointed out numerous times that I have an open mind on the topic. That said, I have a lot of experience with game design, and see flaws. Those flaws can absolutely harm the desire of future players interest in the game. It may be minimal impact, but in a forum where new hosts look for advice for hosting new games with new players... How it impacts new players (that play less than optimal strategy) is a topic that needs to be voiced and heard.

 

[BGinGA]

The only complaints in this thread seem to mostly be from people who have never played it, with only one exception, and the biggest concern is it’ll turn away amateurs, which is total speculation.

Your reading comprehension skills need work, if that's truly all you got out of this thread.