Line check with KQo in HJ (1 Viewer)

[Ben]

Quick hand - I'm not trying to tell a long, drawn-out bad beat story today so I'm just gonna post the whole hand and you tell me what I could have done differently.

Home $1/$2 game - usually plays smaller than your average $1/$2 ($10-$12 raises often thin the field to 1-2 callers, many pots are won by c-bets) but not on this night - everybody had their gambling shoes on from the first hand. $16-$18 raises are seeing 3-4 callers regularly, and peeps are stacking off considerably lighter than normal. So everybody is in that mindset at this point. Hero was gutterballed for $100 twice in the first 30 minutes, got back to even in the next 30 minutes, went quiet for a while, then hit a streak of losing hands recently - current stack $259 on a $500 buy-in. Villain is what I would call a "crafty TAG" - definitely competent, tighter than most but not without creativity. 2 hands previous he opened to $15 from MP with 87o, 2 callers, checked all the way down on AAA(x)8 board and scooped with the river 8. Currently sitting with $279 on a $100 buy-in.

Folds to villain who limps for $2 in MP. Hero in HJ raises to $12 with . Button, big blind, and villain call - $49 pot.

Flop . Checks to hero who bets $40. Only villain calls. $129 pot.

Turn , villain checks, hero bets $105, villain shoves for $207, hero calls.

Villain has and hero does not improve on the river. Meh.


On the one hand, I don't dislike any play I made in this hand, and feel like anything else at any point is probably a mistake. On the other hand, I feel like I REALLY shouldn't be getting stacked in this spot, and must have spewed somewhere. Thoughts?

 

[DrStrange]

Preflop - Hero raises with KQo to $12 in good position. Looks fine.
Flop - Hero has an SPR of 5, multi way pot with a damp/wet flop. Hero isn't checking with TP/GK. hero bets ~80% pot. Seems good.
Turn - Hero bets 80% of the pot and gets check raised for $102 more. The bet seems reasonable given the action - villain could easily be drawing. No way to fold owing $102 to win a $543 pot. Not that we like the way the action unfolded, but Hero is way past pot committed.

DrStrange

 

[mipevi]

Eh, I think SPR of 5 with TPGK is a good enough spot against three gambly villains. But I would have def made it more to go pre since they were willing to call bigger raises.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I mean you could have checked behind on the turn and called a bet on the river, but you may be losing value there in cases where he has worse kings.

 

[DrStrange]

You'll lose value when villain is on a flush draw too.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

True, but a missed flush draw may try to bluff the river, which you are most likely calling

 

[Jimulacrum]

I can maybe see a pot-control check back on the turn, but then you're setting yourself up to have to call the river, so it may only save you $100-ish in the end (unless the river comes scary, in which case you save a lot if he doesn't bet). Without knowing Villain too well, it's hard to say if controlling the pot is worth more than the value you lose against smaller kings and draws he might call with.

I will say, though, that the AAAX8 hand that you used to characterize Villain tells me that he plays loose and unpredictable for small bets, but tends to tighten up on later rounds. He may have weird hole cards pretty often, but it's doubtful that you stand to get much value from one-pair hands like KQ in this spot. This makes me lean toward checking the turn.

 

[joker80]

I vote for check behind pot control on the turn. The villain is likely to make a 3/4 to pot sized raise on the river, you would call and save money. Also calling the shove is questionable although your pot odds are pretty good there. You have to be stronger 19 percent of the time to be profitable. Would have to know whether the villain would shove his flush draws. I don't think he would shove a king rag type of hand. You are really only beating KJ K10 QQ JJ and are 70 : 30 vs the flush. I am not sure the QQ and JJ would be in his range either for shoving.

 

[jbutler]

In my experience there's rarely a need to pot control in games at this level. Villains too infrequently take advantage of a bloated pot by trying to take advantage of a scary river. Even this guy who we have labeled a crafty TAG checked down 87o after raising from MP and getting two callers and getting a board where he could very easily look to have a lock on the hand.

I'm fine with it overall. I think you kind of have to charge near the max on the turn as wet as everything is. Plus, if he did call with a straight draw/flush draw on the flop, the turn will give him a pair with some frequency and he will almost certainly feel compelled to call now that he's picked up a pair with his draws. And a lot of guys will put in a raise with that hand, so I don't even hate it after we get check raised. Yeah, we're losing a fair amount of the time, but there are a ton of draws with a pair in his check raising range on that board I would imagine so it's hard for me to think we could possibly not be getting the right price.

 

[joker80]

Yeah, we're losing a fair amount of the time, but there are a ton of draws with a pair in his check raising range on that board I would imagine so it's hard for me to think we could possibly not be getting the right price.

Check call. But check raise all in? I can see the 56 hands but not the gut shots like 87. I don't know, that's a pretty horrible play and a lot of those hands have made two pair on the turn as well.

 

[jbutler]

Check call. But check raise all in? I can see the 56 hands but not the gut shots like 87. I don't know, that's a pretty horrible play and a lot of those hands have made two pair on the turn as well.

I'm not sure what you're saying - that the villain would likely check call with 87 with a flush draw, but wouldn't likely check raise all in?

I don't see a lot of hands a TAG would flat with on the flop making two pair on the turn. He'd pretty much have to have exactly 67ss to make two pair on the turn and with that hand I'd expect him to either lead out or check raise the flop a significant percentage of the time, further diminishing the frequency with which he'll make two pair on the turn after flatting the flop.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Is he really a TAG though if he's calling a raise OOP against a solid player with 46?

 

[Ben]

Is he really a TAG though if he's calling a raise OOP against a solid player with 46?

I have to say yes, villain is very solid. He certainly isn't doing that every time, or raising with 87o very often at all - the whole table was playing way looser than normal, and I guess it rubbed off. I was still quite surprised, as I haven't played with him as much as some others, and he usually doesn't show down very many hands. I probably fear him more than anyone else at the table, as I don't feel like I have much of a handle on his game at all, especially after that night.

 

[bivey]

Eh, I think SPR of 5 with TPGK is a good enough spot against three gambly villains. But I would have def made it more to go pre since they were willing to call bigger raises.

You really want to invest more preflop with a hand that plays weak against most hands that call a big raise? As it stands, with a loose table, a $40 flop bet clear the riff raff and put a decent of dead money in the middle

Is he really a TAG though if he's calling a raise OOP against a solid player with 46?

If he's really a good TAG, he has to do this once in a while to avoid becoming too predictable. 46s plays nicely multi-way. Also depends on how he views Ben's play. If he "knew" Ben had AA he could still call and score big with the right flop and fold if he whiffed. The stacks were deep enough in my opinion.

 

[DrStrange]

A good TAG will mix in an occasional "off color" hand to keep the observant players guessing.

One player described it this way, "The TAG will raise once a night with something he shouldn't, cold call a raise once a night when he shouldn't and bet with air once a night. I never can be sure what he has, though I have a good guess."

 

[mipevi]

You really want to invest more preflop with a hand that plays weak against most hands that call a big raise?

Your description of the game dynamics is different from the one in OP. They were calling big raises with a wide range.

 

[bivey]

Your description of the game dynamics is different from the one in OP. They were calling big raises with a wide range.

Understood, but if you raise more that range will shrink and now you are closer to pot commitment with a hand that is weak against a tighter range. See? No good.

 

[mipevi]

Understood, but if you raise more that range will shrink and now you are closer to pot commitment with a hand that is weak against a tighter range. See? No good.

Yeah ok thank you.

 

[bivey]

For example, let's say Ben raises to $30 and three go to flop instead of four. Nearly $100 in pot and 229 behind. A flop bet 2/3 pot goes to the turn with one caller like this: $250 in the middle with $154 behind. As stated, it will be hard to get away from TPGK but you might be up against AK, AA, KK. What in a tight calling range do you beat that will call a 2/3 bet on the flop and NOT have you beat with that flop?

Win small, lose big. The good doctor can straighten me out if I've got this messed up.

 

[bivey]

Yeah ok thank you.

Sorry didn't mean to sound like an ass.

 

[mipevi]

No worries, mate. I didn't mean he should raise bigger than the norm for the table, but $18 to go would have been the norm. He made it $12, which is a mistake if he can make others pay more without tightening their range, as seemed to be the case here. I should have stated this more accurately in my earlier post.

 

[Ben]

I've always found it more effective to keep my raise sizing consistent - I'll open for $10, add $2 for each limper. If players are feeling more gambly than usual then so be it - I want to be able to raise with a variety of hands and still represent anything I want to represent post-flop. Since more often than not I don't have a top-tier hand, I want to keep the raises on the smallish side and leave more post-flop play in the stacks (and less money out there for the many cases where I'm forced to check-fold.) If that means I get 5 callers with my AA then that's OK too - nobody is giving me credit for AA ever and that's 5 players giving themselves an opportunity to put a lot of money in extremely bad on the right flops.

 

[Ronoh]

A good TAG will mix in an occasional "off color" hand to keep the observant players guessing.

One player described it this way, "The TAG will raise once a night with something he shouldn't, cold call a raise once a night when he shouldn't and bet with air once a night. I never can be sure what he has, though I have a good guess."

Once a night? Unless his plan is to do all three in the same hand who is ever going to know about it unless he happens to randomly see a flop that suits whatever "bad" hand he decided to raise with?

 

[DrStrange]

"Once a night" is a generalization for something between occasionally and rarely. If done more often, the TAG is transforming him/herself into a LAG. That isn't a bad thing, but it does mean a different mental outlook.

 

[moojersey]

Quick hand - I'm not trying to tell a long, drawn-out bad beat story today so I'm just gonna post the whole hand and you tell me what I could have done differently.

Home $1/$2 game - usually plays smaller than your average $1/$2 ($10-$12 raises often thin the field to 1-2 callers, many pots are won by c-bets) but not on this night - everybody had their gambling shoes on from the first hand. $16-$18 raises are seeing 3-4 callers regularly, and peeps are stacking off considerably lighter than normal. So everybody is in that mindset at this point. Hero was gutterballed for $100 twice in the first 30 minutes, got back to even in the next 30 minutes, went quiet for a while, then hit a streak of losing hands recently - current stack $259 on a $500 buy-in. Villain is what I would call a "crafty TAG" - definitely competent, tighter than most but not without creativity. 2 hands previous he opened to $15 from MP with 87o, 2 callers, checked all the way down on AAA(x)8 board and scooped with the river 8. Currently sitting with $279 on a $100 buy-in.

Folds to villain who limps for $2 in MP. Hero in HJ raises to $12 with . Button, big blind, and villain call - $49 pot.

Flop . Checks to hero who bets $40. Only villain calls. $129 pot.

Turn , villain checks, hero bets $105, villain shoves for $207, hero calls.

Villain has and hero does not improve on the river. Meh.


On the one hand, I don't dislike any play I made in this hand, and feel like anything else at any point is probably a mistake. On the other hand, I feel like I REALLY shouldn't be getting stacked in this spot, and must have spewed somewhere. Thoughts?

Check behind on the turn for pot control. I'd be wondering what he called the flop with. 66 and 44 are reasonable hands he can have and they have you crushed. I'm calling most river bets to get to showdown.

 

[tripleflatbarrel]

Maybe raise to 16 or so pre given the looseness of the night but 12 is probably fine.

Checking turn.

Probably checking back a lot of rivers and bet folding others.