Line check: .10/.20 NLHE with AA (Mavens)

Schmendr1ck

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Playing 0.10/0.20 NLHE on WCPR. We're six-handed at a nine-max table, and it's Tuesday night after the Orlando tourney has finished (which I won). I'd been at the table for a bit and was stuck around 1-1.5 BI. Table was very loose, I was playing okay but wasn't picking up many hands, and the few I had weren't connecting or were getting run down.
  • UTG (58.00): I've only played against him a couple of times. He seems reasonably solid, maybe a little overaggressive with TP-type hands but I haven't seen him spew or overbluff.
  • SB (14.80) is a guy from my local group. He's not good, but .10/.20 is cheap enough that he has fun.
  • Hero (54.50) is UTG+1.
Preflop seems standard so I'm going to skip ahead to flop action, but comments are welcome.

Preflop
UTG limps.
Hero (UTG+1) raises to 0.70 with :as::ac:.
SB calls, UTG calls, all others fold.

Flop ($2.30) :jc::ts::4s:
SB checks.
UTG donks for 1.55.

Hero...?
 
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I think considering you block nut spade draw and alot of nut straight draw combos a raise is in order to protect your equity here. I think on occasion you are going to run into J-10, the fact he initially limped pretty much elimates sets of jacks or 10s IMO. So maybe villan has a set of 4s, but I'd guess more its likely top pair with some type of re-draw. Its a tough spot and I'd be ready to let it go if he comes over the top, but I think a raise allows you to get some info on villans strength depending on how they play back.
 

AWenger

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I like a raise, if nothing more than to try and thin the field from the SB who checked, and could call to close the action. I don't want to go 3-way into the turn with AA. (If you're not raising a donk bet with AA here, what hands are you raising a donk bet with here.)
 

Eloe2000

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These are exactly the hands I always get burnt on for not being aggressive enough. Raise. I want any pairs out and any single draws out. I could see a top pair w/draw or a double draw calling or a set reraising.
 

DrStrange

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I am in the raise camp. Let's make it $5 to go, or $3.45 into a $5.40 pot. Hero has sets and a number of nut draws in his preflop range. < do we think either villain is the sort that even considers Hero's range?>

This is a wet board. Hero is not going to like most turns - maybe not hate the card, but anything that makes a straight or flush is an issue.

I wonder that sorts of hands UTG has that are in his limp/call range? Good thing Hero knows there isn't a nut flush draw out there.

Do we think UTG could "go to war" with a flush draw + pair hand? KJs / QJs/J9s seem like reasonable limp/call sorts of hands. For that matter, would villain get aggressive with pure draws? For sure with a combo draw like KQs or Q9s, but just an eight or nine out draw?

Unless we have good reason to think villain's reraise range is just two pair / sets / monster draws, hero will need to consider calling a reraise.

For what it is worth, I would not exclude TT or even JJ from villain's UTG range. For sure some folks would raise those hands UTG but not everyone.

DrStrange
 

JustinInMN

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I can justify either a call or a raise here. A call is defensible mainly because we have the :as: so we are not dead if a spade hits and it probably reduces the spade combos UTG can have. But I think I like a raise as well just to make sure if villain has Jx, we get value from it before the board turns bad for him.

Late edit, missed the SB has also called. That makes me favor the raise even more, charge him max for all draws. If SB cold calls the raise, then we know to play straight or flush cards carefully. If not then we are likely against a villain with J-x and with the right runout we will collect on two more streets plus the raise :).
 

Steve Birrer

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I am ok with a call or raise. Both seem to have merit to me. Actually, thinking more about it I think I actually prefer just calling. Looking at the betting line villain has taken. Limp/calls your preflop raise. Then bets out post flop???? If he flopped a set or two pair I suspect he would check/raise or check/call. He wants you to stay in the hand. His bet screams to me he wants a fold.
 

JustinInMN

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Villian seems pretty motivated to play out of flow with any j-x to me by donking. A lot of hero's misses are gutshots that he could choose to check.

Maybe that's an argument for the flat with AA, to protect the flats hero would almost surely make with AK or AQ. And of the hands that hero could have here that beat a pair of jacks, this is the least likely to be outdrawn, especially holding :as:.

I think it's close, but my instinct is still make the raise with the third player in.
 

Jimulacrum

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Raise to $6, give or take. Lots of hands can bet out here that are still beaten by AA, especially on such a short stack. Board is too wet to take a passive line with SB behind; you want to protect what's out there and try to thin out the field to a more predictable lineup of hands.

You also want to give SB the opportunity to tip his hand if he's got something big. How he responds to your raise will say a hell of a lot more than his response to a bet and a call. Realistically, you're not getting away from UTG's short stack no matter what action he takes, but SB has you covered with 200+ BB, and you have the kind of hand where you really need information.

I will go so far as to say that raising is the only really correct play in this spot. Folding would be way too tight, and calling has the drawbacks I just explained. Raising wins you more when you're ahead and helps you escape more cheaply when you're not.
 

boltonguy

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When I see leads like this often V has a made hand and wants to get money in now to end the hand while ahead so it doesnt check through and the flush comes in on the turn. I dont think a draw donk leads like this because they want to see another card. I think this player wants to end the hand now while they are ahead.

Candidate hands are JJ, TT, AJ, KJ, JT, 44. I dont think AJ, KJ, JJ & TT are UTG limps but JTo and 44 are. So I would think donk leading into 2 players is pretty strong made hand so I'm not raising when I think I'm beat.

I'm calling and hoping to improve.
 

Anthony Martino

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I'd expect the most likely candidates for Villain given his description here are:

AJ
KJ
JT

I don't think he'd get all that frisky with QJ in this spot. And if he has a set I'd expect a checkraise of some sort. I don't like a raise here, he can essentially toss away his hands that are beat, and will fire back when we're in trouble.

Going to call with position on this opponent and see what he does on the turn.
 

pharaohone

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I like a raise... as others have said, can’t allow a SB draw to get such a nice price after you call a donk bet on that wet of a board. And again as others have said, I think you will learn a lot more. This is a good player as you said... fee like they should have checked here and allowed you to c bet if they had a monster like j-t, JJ, or TT. Let’s raise and see where we’re at. There’s $3.65 now in the pot... would make his $1.55 a pot sized raise, or about $5 to go.
 

JMC9389

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I like raising here. If villain is on a draw or flopped top pair, make it hurt to call.
 
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So if we just flat call here, what's the gameplan for the turn? Rarely is villan not going to double bsrrel this spot, and.we are in a tough spot again. Pretty tough for our aces to improve here, but the raise helps us navigate future streets. If he just flats the raise then fires another 1/2 pot type size bet on the turn I think its time to start thinking about hitting the muck, but if he checks turn which I find is the most common scenario I think it's a greenlight to start betting for some value.
 

Schmendr1ck

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So the suggestions were a lot more split than I expected them to be, with a number of folks suggesting a call here.

Hero feels like there are a large number of Jx and draws in UTGs donking range (in spite of blocking both NFDs), and wants to get value on this wet board while he can. He raises, though probably a bit too small.

Preflop
UTG limps.
Hero (UTG+1) raises to 0.70 with :as::ac:.
SB calls, UTG calls, all others fold.

Flop ($2.30) :jc::ts::4s:
SB checks.
UTG donks for 1.55.
Hero raises to 4.50.
SB folds.
UTG calls.

Turn ($11.30) :jc::ts::4s::7d:
UTG checks.
Hero...?
 

AWenger

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I'd bet, around $6. So if villain had flopped 2 pair or a set, I'd have expected a re-raise on the flop; so it's looking like he's on a draw or a top or middle pair. I'd probably keep turn bet on the smaller side, to try and get pairs and flush draws to still come along; say around 1/2 pot, maybe slightly more than the flop bet.
 
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I like the sizing, depending on villan I think its hard for them to just flat that raise with a 2 pair holding or better, if villan came over the top its not too tough for us to let go.

I think worse case scenario would have been if villan led out which luckily didn't happen. I'm not sure though I feel like a checks ok, but I see myself firing here. Villan flatting our flop raise then checking turn are 2 passive actions, for me thats a greenlight to put some pressure on hands like KJ. I think at this point we most likely still have the best hand so I'd go around $8. I just don't see 9-8 leading out on that flop.

I'd guess we get more folds than x rsises, but quite a few flats. And I would think that if villan flats there is a good chance he checks riv giving us the option to check depending on the runout.
 

BukNaked36

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$10 and go from there. Hopefully river bricks and he checks.

89 just got there so that is some concern, but I'd still be thinking I'm ahead

Holding the :as: is actually bad - makes the spade draw less likely
 

Schmendr1ck

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Bet $7.77, baby.
Yeah, sometimes that's what these stakes feel like!
1613457831030.png
 

Eriks

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I see merit for both calling and raising the flop depending on villain. Against someone who over values TP I'd lean a bit more towards raising but I think it's pretty close. We're targeting QJ, KJ and AJ (which we block) and draws. I would like to have seen villain play draws like this to feel really good about raising. What would be a good raising range/calling range? Maybe QQ and KK are better calls than AA since they block the KQ straight draw, even better if they contain the Qs/Ks. I don't wanna end up with a calling range that's too weak.
 
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I guess alot depends on villan/villans, the only way I'd be flatting with an overpair on this board is if I figure I will be heads up vs someone who has clearly shown the ability to take stabs at pots with frequency and or over value naked pairs.....sometimes the stars align but its pretty rare. Calling also increases possibilities of going 3 ways to the against other weaker draws and pairs. If I'm holding 8-9 on SB I'd feel like I'm priced in and making a call on that flop bet. For me flatting exposes just opens the door for tough spots. I also wouldn't know how to proceed on future streets. Personally I feel like if the plan is to just flat turn and river alot of pots go villans way.
 
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