Interesting river decision OOP vs a strong opponent ($1/3/10 game) (2 Viewers)

[buffalojim]

This also why JJ just sucks ass IMO. It looks nice but it's just low enough to make you question your existence.

I mean, in this situation you have to be putting them on trips, a mid pair, flush draw. If you don't think he has trips aren't you betting? I mean, you can't me think they have an over pair, right?

 

[moechar]

Just doing some super quick calculations, you're actually a dog to like almost all of his draws in this spot, even K9c you only have 45% equity. So even his semi bluffs are doing really well in this spot, which I think he could have a lot of since you don't block any besides MAYBE QJs...

 

[buffalojim]

Just doing some super quick calculations, you're actually a dog to like almost all of his draws in this spot, even K9c you only have 45% equity. So even his semi bluffs are doing really well in this spot, which I think he could have a lot of since you don't block any besides MAYBE QJs...

I envy you guys who can figure this stuff out, I'll just watch from the rail from here on out

 

[moechar]

One last note, as I'm putting myself in your shoes and wondering what if this was a hand between us hahaha. I don't even know what cards are good for me here that's the issue... like a 3d, 2s, there seems to not be a lot of ways to improve here, even if a J comes, if its the J of clubs you're still in a really tough spot...

 

[moechar]

I envy you guys who can figure this stuff out, I'll just watch from the rail from here on out

No sir, plz keep giving your input as all input is valuable

 

[Senzrock]

One last note, as I'm putting myself in your shoes and wondering what if this was a hand between us hahaha. I don't even know what cards are good for me here that's the issue... like a 3d, 2s, there seems to not be a lot of ways to improve here, even if a J comes, if its the J of clubs you're still in a really tough spot...

Villain was Jacob lol

 

[bernielomax]

You characterized this player as "strong". Is this a player that would value a hand like and call a pre flop raise with suited connectors?

 

[buffalojim]

No sir, plz keep giving your input as all input is valuable

Why do I feel this will be used against me in 4 weeks lol?

 

[moechar]

Villain was Jacob lol

Shit. You should've started with that LOL.

I mean I think Jacob knows he has a range advantage on you here so he has a lot of merit to raise you with a ton of his bluffs, and there's not a lot you can do besides fold I think if that happens... But it's probably more wise to look at it as if it was anybody you believed as competent rather than someone we know haha.

 

[moechar]

 

[Senzrock]

You characterized this player as "strong". Is this a player that would value a hand like and call a pre flop raise with suited connectors?

Yes, considering how deep we are ($1200 effective with me and several others still to act after he called).

 

[kmccormick100]

This flop is significantly better for V's range, you're basically capped at an overpair or the very occasional TT - he has all the 66, 77, TT, 89s, AKcc J9cc etc.

I'm probably continuing for a downbet to $90-100 hoping he whiffed. While you're probably still ahead, all of the big draws have a ton of equity. A check also isn't the worst, but I don't love having to call a $200 bet from V and give up the betting lead.

 

[KHarp1]

I'd like to back it up a little, if you'll allow me, to preflop. My thought was, and I realize this can be trouble, but, depending on where I'm at in the night, what I've seen hand and play wise, this might have been a spot where I commit a larger bet to just take the pot down. I know that's not "by the book," but, if I'm reading the table is this a place where I just want to take down the pot/isolate and race? Tell me how out of line I am, because sometimes I'll make that stand.

 

[moechar]

I'd like to back it up a little, if you'll allow me, to preflop. My thought was, and I realize this can be trouble, but, depending on where I'm at in the night, what I've seen hand and play wise, this might have been a spot where I commit a larger bet to just take the pot down. I know that's not "by the book," but, if I'm reading the table is this a place where I just want to take down the pot/isolate and race? Tell me how out of line I am, because sometimes I'll make that stand.

I feel like the hard part with this is that if people are implementing a limp re raise strategy as OP mentioned, if you raise to lets say $200 and they re-raise to $500, are you comfortable jamming or folding jacks here? cuz if you call you only have like a 3/4 pot sized bet left.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I'd like to back it up a little, if you'll allow me, to preflop. My thought was, and I realize this can be trouble, but, depending on where I'm at in the night, what I've seen hand and play wise, this might have been a spot where I commit a larger bet to just take the pot down. I know that's not "by the book," but, if I'm reading the table is this a place where I just want to take down the pot/isolate and race? Tell me how out of line I am, because sometimes I'll make that stand.

You can, but you risk running into a monster that had limped before you. From the posts it sounds like there's quite a few players that are capable of doing that, plus there's deep stacks. How big are you thinking?

Its dangerous to try to just end it right here, because there's no way we can guarantee its ended.

 

[KHarp1]

My initial thought was jam, but, I rarely like planting my flag with JJ. One way of finding out where you're at, though. 300 you could possibly get away from, 500 would put you committed .

 

[Frogzilla]

Our bet freq on this flop should be relatively low given the ranges, but JJ is in that bet range. Generally bet more often with pocket overpairs depending on how often the turn can downgrade you to 2nd pair. QKA all over JJ means bet it. JJ is the best overpair to bet. 1/2 pot probably.

I can’t help but point out though, the thread promises an interesting river decision, and this is a flop spot.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

My initial thought was jam, but, I rarely like planting my flag with JJ. One way of finding out where you're at, though. 300 you could possibly get away from, 500 would put you committed .

On a deep stacked table, lots of cards I wouldn't want to be called by. This is why JJ is a tough hand, I don't want to be shoving 120 bbs to win, what, 6?
300 is 1/4 of our stack, if we're using that as a "where we at" we gonna be in trouble if we get an answer we don't like.

 

[Marius L]

This flop is significantly better for V's range, you're basically capped at an overpair or the very occasional TT - he has all the 66, 77, TT, 89s, AKcc J9cc etc.

I'm probably continuing for a downbet to $90-100 hoping he whiffed. While you're probably still ahead, all of the big draws have a ton of equity. A check also isn't the worst, but I don't love having to call a $200 bet from V and give up the betting lead.

Much agree with this. Check calling multiple streets feels bad, so I'd rather bet out the flop. Problem is you're OOP and villain might float a good amount of hands here and it will be hard to win the hand if he decides to put a little pressure on

 

[Senzrock]

My initial thought was jam, but, I rarely like planting my flag with JJ. One way of finding out where you're at, though. 300 you could possibly get away from, 500 would put you committed .

We are *never* jamming $1200 to win $50 in dead money. That's just not worth it, and makes for a huge loss the times when we run into opponents top of range (QQ+). I think what you are voicing though, is voiced by several on here, which is a variation of "I am going to be uncomfortable playing this hand post flop so because of that...." Some are saying fold pre, some are saying limping in with a hand as strong as JJ, some are saying shove for huge amounts. But it's all kind of getting to the same issue - poker is hard, even harder out of position, and even harder when we are out of position deep stacked. And that's a real! However... if we are serious about improving, and I know that's not what everyone cares about necessarily, but if you are one of those people who is serious about improving, then you simply have to get into the deep water and learn to play some of these tough spots. No other way to learn. And just to be clear, I think many people might agree with you general approach (or some variation of it), but I would argue that you will hit a ceiling very quickly in your game if you don't push yourself to navigate these kind of spots.

 

[Senzrock]

Context: Playing a $1/3/10 game (It was billed as a deepstacked $1/3 game with $2k rebuy limits and everyone has been straddling). Mix of super action players (a few of them super splashy) and 3 strong regs. We are currently 9-handed and the game has been playing fast/loose with opens usually coming in at $50 and 3bets at $250. While it is technically deepstacked, the straddles and the action are making this game play a lot shallower than it might seem. I am $1200 effective, main villain in the hand has me covered.


Preflop: UTG straddles to $10 and UTG +1 (strong player) limps in for $10 which has becoming more common as the action players have just been blind raising almost any hand to $50 preflop. This has meant that some of the regs have mixed in some limp-raises and limp-calling into their strategy (usually all of us would 100% come in for a raise if entering the pot). two more calls to me in the SB and I look down at

Hero raises to $125. While I think there are some merits for slow playing JJ here, I think in a game like this it a bit too strong of a hand to play this way. I will almost always be check folding the flop and am just letting everyone into the pot with weaker ranges, basically giving up with what is likely the best hand if I don't flop a set. Bit too weak for me, I want to see if I can take it down or get heads up vs a weak range. If someone 3bets, me, I can reevaluate. We see the flop below) and have our next decision...

UTG+1 limps $10
UTG+2 folds
MP 1 folds
MP 2 folds
HJ calls $10
BTN calls $10
Hero (SB): Raise to $125
BB Folds
Straddle folds
UTG +1 Calls $125
HJ folds
BTN folds

Pot: $270

Flop: Tc7c6h

Action to Hero with

So my thoughts were very similar to @kmccormick100 @moechar and @Marius L here on this flop. This is not a good flop for hero. It is not that JJ won't be the best hand still very often, but our opponent has the nut advantage on us (he has more of the strongest hands in his range than we do). Because of this, my thinking was that, even though it meant giving up the betting lead, I would want to check my entire range here on this flop. That meant, I was checking all of my AK/AQ (maybe cbet a few club combos) and I was checking all of my AA-JJ as well. Obviously a few hands will want to bet here, say if I had a set or the actual nuts for some reason, I think those are perfectly fine to cbet on a draw heavy board.

Pot: $270

Flop: Tc7c6c

Hero checks
Villain thinks and bets $100

Action on hero

 

[kmccormick100]

Call. Next.

 

[Senzrock]

So my thoughts were very similar to @kmccormick100 @moechar and @Marius L here on this flop. This is not a good flop for hero. It is not that JJ won't be the best hand still very often, but our opponent has the nut advantage on us (he has more of the strongest hands in his range than we do). Because of this, my thinking was that, even though it meant giving up the betting lead, I would want to check my entire range here on this flop. That meant, I was checking all of my AK/AQ (maybe cbet a few club combos) and I was checking all of my AA-JJ as well. Obviously a few hands will want to bet here, say if I had a set or the actual nuts for some reason, I think those are perfectly fine to cbet on a draw heavy board.

Pot: $270

Flop: Tc7c6c

Hero checks
Villain thinks and bets $100

Action on hero

The one key decision point I make here obviously, which @kmccormick100 and @Marius L might differ with, is that I want to check flop vs betting flop (and I agree that if we do decide to bet flop, we want to bet small, maybe even as small as $75 or so. The issue becomes, against a capable opponent, what if he jumps on our smaller sizing and puts us to the test with a raise on this flop? I really don't want to be folding JJ on a T high board vs a good player here. I also would hate to just call a raise here. Really no good options. So I think I like checking, because it allows us to keep villains range very wide (lots of bluffs + semi bluffs that potentially give up on later streets) and it allows us to lose the least if we are up against an actual hand (I don't mind check-calling flop and then giving up on some turn cards for example).

Call. Next.

Yeah, I don't think there are many other options but will give folks a few minutes just in case there is some disagreement.

 

[KHarp1]

Totally agree, and wasn't really thinking about pot size as only being$ $50. Forgive me, I'm not usually this dense,, but, I just drove 12 hrs in a thunderstorm and haven't had much sleep. Upon rereading, I'd feel comfortable with the bet made, and, I'd rather take control of the betting. I'd probably throw the same bet again and see where it goes, but, OOP I'd try to get another card as cheap as I can while still applying pressure. I'd be very quick to get away from this hand for the very reasons mentioned. Seems very easy to get ourselves in on the wrong side of a draw, or, made hand.

 

[kmccormick100]

The one key decision point I make here obviously, which @kmccormick100 and @Marius L might differ with, is that I want to check flop vs betting flop (and I agree that if we do decide to bet flop, we want to bet small, maybe even as small as $75 or so. The issue becomes, against a capable opponent, what if he jumps on our smaller sizing and puts us to the test with a raise on this flop? I really don't want to be folding JJ on a T high board vs a good player here. I also would hate to just call a raise here. Really no good options. So I think I like checking, because it allows us to keep villains range very wide (lots of bluffs + semi bluffs that potentially give up on later streets) and it allows us to lose the least if we are up against an actual hand (I don't mind check-calling flop and then giving up on some turn cards for example).


Yeah, I don't think there are many other options but will give folks a few minutes just in case there is some disagreement.

Agreed, on that board in the V's position I'm probably raising a lot of C-Bets to put hero in a tough spot, that's such a wet board.

 

[bernielomax]

The one key decision point I make here obviously, which @kmccormick100 and @Marius L might differ with, is that I want to check flop vs betting flop (and I agree that if we do decide to bet flop, we want to bet small, maybe even as small as $75 or so. The issue becomes, against a capable opponent, what if he jumps on our smaller sizing and puts us to the test with a raise on this flop? I really don't want to be folding JJ on a T high board vs a good player here. I also would hate to just call a raise here. Really no good options. So I think I like checking, because it allows us to keep villains range very wide (lots of bluffs + semi bluffs that potentially give up on later streets) and it allows us to lose the least if we are up against an actual hand (I don't mind check-calling flop and then giving up on some turn cards for example).


Yeah, I don't think there are many other options but will give folks a few minutes just in case there is some disagreement.

I really like the check call against this player out of position. I feel like this gives you potential bluffs to lead out with down the road, for instance if the turn is a scare card AK (since you were the pre-flop raiser) or completes a flush.

 

[MrCatPants]

The one key decision point I make here obviously, which @kmccormick100 and @Marius L might differ with, is that I want to check flop vs betting flop (and I agree that if we do decide to bet flop, we want to bet small, maybe even as small as $75 or so. The issue becomes, against a capable opponent, what if he jumps on our smaller sizing and puts us to the test with a raise on this flop? I really don't want to be folding JJ on a T high board vs a good player here. I also would hate to just call a raise here. Really no good options. So I think I like checking, because it allows us to keep villains range very wide (lots of bluffs + semi bluffs that potentially give up on later streets) and it allows us to lose the least if we are up against an actual hand (I don't mind check-calling flop and then giving up on some turn cards for example).


Yeah, I don't think there are many other options but will give folks a few minutes just in case there is some disagreement.

Yeah - I agree. I just don't see what a bet accomplishes that a check does not do better. You're more likely to have more Ax combos that whiffed here than overpairs, so let him bet his range - you are on the higher end of yours.

 

[Senzrock]

So my thoughts were very similar to @kmccormick100 @moechar and @Marius L here on this flop. This is not a good flop for hero. It is not that JJ won't be the best hand still very often, but our opponent has the nut advantage on us (he has more of the strongest hands in his range than we do). Because of this, my thinking was that, even though it meant giving up the betting lead, I would want to check my entire range here on this flop. That meant, I was checking all of my AK/AQ (maybe cbet a few club combos) and I was checking all of my AA-JJ as well. Obviously a few hands will want to bet here, say if I had a set or the actual nuts for some reason, I think those are perfectly fine to cbet on a draw heavy board.

Pot: $270

Flop: Tc7c6c

Hero checks
Villain thinks and bets $100

Action on hero

Pot: $270

Flop:
Hero checks
Villain thinks and bets $100
Hero calls (can't see an argument for much else here)

Pot: $470

Turn:
Hero checks (I'm checking full range here after just check-calling turn).
Villain: Checks

Question: What do we make of villains 1/3 pot bet on the flop in position and then checking the K on the the turn. Can we narrow his range a bit here? What kind of holdings might we be looking at? Is villain ever doing this with a strong hand? Does the K ever hit villain?

 

[toothpic]

So my thoughts were very similar to @kmccormick100 @moechar and @Marius L here on this flop. This is not a good flop for hero. It is not that JJ won't be the best hand still very often, but our opponent has the nut advantage on us (he has more of the strongest hands in his range than we do). Because of this, my thinking was that, even though it meant giving up the betting lead, I would want to check my entire range here on this flop. That meant, I was checking all of my AK/AQ (maybe cbet a few club combos) and I was checking all of my AA-JJ as well. Obviously a few hands will want to bet here, say if I had a set or the actual nuts for some reason, I think those are perfectly fine to cbet on a draw heavy board.

Pot: $270

Flop: Tc7c6c

Hero checks
Villain thinks and bets $100

Action on hero

Shouldn't that flop be Tc7c6h ?

Pot: $270

Flop:
Hero checks
Villain thinks and bets $100
Hero calls (can't see an argument for much else here)

Pot: $470

Turn:
Hero checks (I'm checking full range here after just check-calling turn).
Villain: Checks

Question: What do we make of villains 1/3 pot bet on the flop in position and then checking the K on the the turn. Can we narrow his range a bit here? What kind of holdings might we be looking at? Is villain ever doing this with a strong hand? Does the K ever hit villain?

Or maybe a 6d but not 6c for sure?

The 100 flop bet feels like a draw. On the river him checking back feels like he missed. Is it possible they hit a K, yes but not sure why they wouldn't try to extract value unless they suspect you may have AK of some variety? Maybe something like Kc9c, but if they are as aggressive as you say that might be played a lot faster paced. Maybe an offsuite K9 going for a gutshot but then turns a K?
Edit: Changed rivers a K to turns a K.

How widely are you playing normally? Do they suspect that you have a suited connector hande like 98 and so they best small and then check the river? I'm guessing villian had a 10 or maybe weak K.

 

[Senzrock]

Shouldn't that flop be Tc7c6h ?


Or maybe a 6d but not 6c for sure?

The 100 flop bet feels like a draw. On the river him checking back feels like he missed. Is it possible they hit a K, yes but not sure why they wouldn't try to extract value unless they suspect you may have AK of some variety? Maybe something like Kc9c, but if they are as aggressive as you say that might be played a lot faster paced. Maybe an offsuite K9 going for a gutshot but then rivers a K?

How widely are you playing normally? Do they suspect that you have a suited connector hande like 98 and so they best small and then check the river? I'm guessing villian had a 10 or maybe weak K.

I might have messed up one of the suits but it's not important here as the flush did not come home. I'm not sure that the villain could have too many weak K's because he is not calling $125 pre with hands like that. K9s is certainly an option (makes sense to take a stab on the flop and then check back on the turn once he hits top pair just to pot control (probably less likely though). I think my image is on the tight aggressive side so I believe my hand very much looks like AK/AQs with maybe a few hands like 99 sprinkled in there. I could certainly have TT pre but I am not playing that hand like this on both flop and turn so doubt he is worried about that. 98s is a hand I will just call pre and not raise out of the SB. Villain having a hand like ATs definitely went through my mind... in fact it was one of the likely hands I thought he might show up with as played. Checking the K on the turn seemed like a good sign for me because it implied (on the surface) that he was interested in the flop but concerned about AK hitting for me. If that was the case, then villain would likely check behind many draws (one pairs + draw) type hands.