Interesting 1/3 hand from today (1 Viewer)

[Perthmike]

ive never attempted a strategy thread before, but this one was interesting today and im always slightly unsure how to play pocket jacks, mostly since I’m forever losing with them. I’d appreciate any comments and feedback on how the hand could be played, to determine whether I did in fact make the correct play, or whether I might consider playing it differently long-term.

Playing 9 handed and I look down at JJ on the button with a stack of just over $300.

Utg (young Asian guy capable of raising light) opens to $22, utg+1 call, mid position ($500 stack) calls, next guy calls, folded to me.

I have no further information on any of the other 3 as I’ve never played them before. What should my plan be?

 

[BGinGA]

Shove or fold. Either get out cheap, or put it in the hands of the poker gods.

 

[BeesKnees]

I definitely try to shut this down pre flop, huge raise or shove.

 

[Rhodeman77]

With $90 ish in the pot already and once you call it will be $112, you will only have $210 or so behind, you can call hoping to set mine and fold if you miss your set on the flop.

Or go high variance and shove. If you get called you are never going to better than a coin flip vs AK.

I like a shove since the first person to bet could be opening light and yet 3 the callers all had a chance to raise him themselves but instead just called.

So if you can get the Asian guy to fold there is a strong possibility they all fold and you pick up an easy $90.

 

[Perthmike]

The thought of flat calling did occur to me, but I just don’t like being in multiway hands with so much in the pot and just aiming to flop a set.

I had been playing very tight for just over 90 minutes and only got to showdown once with suited for top pair against some moron with , so I figured a raise would look very strong, rather than bluffy.

Shoving never occurred to me with my but that’s maybe something I should think more about for the future.

I figured it was possible, but unlikely anyone had kk or aa, since they should have 3 bet, so I went with $110, hoping to take down the hand or at the very least isolate someone with maybe aq or ak.

Original raiser folded, so did utg+1, big stack thought for about 20-30 seconds and called, last guy folded so we went heads up to a flop of



Opponent checked to me. Thoughts on his possible holdings and my next move?

 

[Basmx]

I think it really depends on the table your playing on. I feel like you got 2 options and that is raise or shove.
If the table is really call happy then I would say shove it and pick up the 90 bucks in the middle. If the table is not that call happy vs 3bets then I feel like 3 betting to 80 or 90 seems the best option. But you have the risk of getting called in 4 spots wich obviously is never a good feeling with Jacks and almost 1/3 of your stack in the middle haha.

Not sure what the best option is in a 1/3 game. But in most 2/5 games and for sure on 5/10 I would almost always 3 bet instead of shoving.

 

[Basmx]

The thought of flat calling did occur to me, but I just don’t like being in multiway hands with so much in the pot and just aiming to flop a set.

I had been playing very tight for just over 90 minutes and only got to showdown once with suited for top pair against some moron with , so I figured a raise would look very strong, rather than bluffy.

Shoving never occurred to me with my but that’s maybe something I should think more about for the future.

I figured it was possible, but unlikely anyone had kk or aa, since they should have 3 bet, so I went with $110, hoping to take down the hand or at the very least isolate someone with maybe aq or ak.

Original raiser folded, so did utg+1, big stack thought for about 20-30 seconds and called, last guy folded so we went heads up to a flop of



Opponent checked to me. Thoughts on his possible holdings and my next move?

I feel like the 3 bet is on the big side. But like I said in my first comment, I don't really play 1/3 so i don't know if they would call allot for a smaller sizing (80-90 bucks).
But when you get a flop like that after 3 betting, I like a small cbet of 1/3 pot or a little bit bigger. A small sizing on that board is great because the board is really dry and It allows you to cbet more in the future with these small-ish cbets. And it might get him to spass his AK or AQ suited every once in a while.

 

[BGinGA]

The thought of flat calling did occur to me, but I just don’t like being in multiway hands with so much in the pot and just aiming to flop a set.

I had been playing very tight for just over 90 minutes and only got to showdown once with suited for top pair against some moron with , so I figured a raise would look very strong, rather than bluffy.

Shoving never occurred to me with my but that’s maybe something I should think more about for the future.

I figured it was possible, but unlikely anyone had kk or aa, since they should have 3 bet, so I went with $110, hoping to take down the hand or at the very least isolate someone with maybe aq or ak.

Original raiser folded, so did utg+1, big stack thought for about 20-30 seconds and called, last guy folded so we went heads up to a flop of



Opponent checked to me. Thoughts on his possible holdings and my next move?

Still shoving.

 

[Perthmike]

I feel like the 3 bet is on the big side. But like I said in my first comment, I don't really play 1/3 so i don't know if they would call allot for a smaller sizing (80-90 bucks).
But when you get a flop like that after 3 betting, I like a small cbet of 1/3 pot or a little bit bigger. A small sizing on that board is great because the board is really dry and It allows you to cbet more in the future with these small-ish cbets. And it might get him to spass his AK or AQ suited every once in a while.

My first instinct was to bet $85 and I nearly did, but the 1/3 players here are somewhat call happy so I was concerned about getting more than one caller, so I went for the $110

 

[Anthony Martino]

Playing 9 handed and I look down at JJ on the button with a stack of just over $300.

Utg (young Asian guy capable of raising light) opens to $22, utg+1 call, mid position ($500 stack) calls, next guy calls, folded to me.

I have no further information on any of the other 3 as I’ve never played them before. What should my plan be?

Given stack and pot size I don't mind a shove as well. When you call you're essentially hoping to set up, because even an all-low flop can bring dangers of a smaller pair setting on you, flushes and straights, etc.

Villians preflop raise to 7x the BB seems overly aggressive, possibly a weak holding that doesn't want a ton of action, but I suppose that depends on what the standard raises and such have been.

Given so many guys called the 7x raise perhaps that is standard in this game.

The thought of flat calling did occur to me, but I just don’t like being in multiway hands with so much in the pot and just aiming to flop a set.

I had been playing very tight for just over 90 minutes and only got to showdown once with suited for top pair against some moron with , so I figured a raise would look very strong, rather than bluffy.

Shoving never occurred to me with my but that’s maybe something I should think more about for the future.

I figured it was possible, but unlikely anyone had kk or aa, since they should have 3 bet, so I went with $110, hoping to take down the hand or at the very least isolate someone with maybe aq or ak.

Original raiser folded, so did utg+1, big stack thought for about 20-30 seconds and called, last guy folded so we went heads up to a flop of



Opponent checked to me. Thoughts on his possible holdings and my next move?

Well, it strikes me as odd that a guy would cold-call a 7x raise and then cold-call your reraise there if he's holding AA or KK. Given he has a big stack and the way he played, he could just be a station that likes to see flops regardless of the price he has to pay.

So he could have Ax s00ted, he could have a pocket pair, etc.

Regardless, I think the vast majority of the time we're ahead here. Villian shouldn't usually have a 9, although A9 s00ted or 99 are within his range, so are all other pocket pairs that you crush (except 22, which would be really far out but hey, people love to make bad calls)

I think at this point you need to shove, given stack to pot sizes and the action as it's gone down and the board texture. You don't want a scare card on the turn to kill your action or allow your opponent to bluff you off the pot.

 

[derekdd23]

Flop I balance calling and raising. I think either is fine, i thought your sizing was pretty good. Shoving is such a terrible play, you are only ever getting called with better and you are risking 300 to win 100, this is not a tournament.

The turn is a shove, you have 1 pot sized bet and any other action just seems silly. betting half your stack is just wrong and checking just gives overcards free equity realization.

 

[Rhodeman77]

You are pot committed now no matter what comes on the turn. I would have gone with an all-in bet on the flop since he seems to be call happy making two 2 calls already.

 

[Perthmike]

After it was checked to me on the flop, I figured I was in it for my whole stack win or lose and that his likeliest holdings were aq or ak.

I thought about the shove, but ended up raising $120. My reasoning was that I thought I was more likely to get a call from just overcards for that price, rather than a shove for $200, but I’ll admit that it’s an odd size and doesn’t leave me much of a stack left. I had a terrible run of cards recently and am just back from a self imposed break, so it’s possible I was subconsciously being a wuss as well.

He thought for a bit and called.

The turn was a . He goes all in. I reluctantly snap call.

What do we think he has?

 

[Anthony Martino]

What do we think he has?

Deuces never loses and he thinks you've got a King?

 

[Ronoh]

What do we think he has?

The other two jacks.

 

[Basmx]

You are pot committed now no matter what comes on the turn. I would have gone with an all-in bet on the flop since he seems to be call happy making two 2 calls already.

I don't think shoving the flop makes to much sense. Yeah you are pretty much pot committed on the flop no matter what you bet. But does he ever call an all-in with AK AQ on that flop? Wich he most likely has. If he does sometimes call of AK or even AQ the shove gets allot better. I think when you bet small you give your opponent the chance to make a mistake or spew of his money.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

After it was checked to me on the flop, I figured I was in it for my whole stack win or lose and that his likeliest holdings were aq or ak.

I thought about the shove, but ended up raising $120. My reasoning was that I thought I was more likely to get a call from just overcards for that price, rather than a shove for $200, but I’ll admit that it’s an odd size and doesn’t leave me much of a stack left. I had a terrible run of cards recently and am just back from a self imposed break, so it’s possible I was subconsciously being a wuss as well.

He thought for a bit and called.

The turn was a . He goes all in. I reluctantly snap call.

What do we think he has?

He's certainly trying to rep AK. He could have anything though, and with the amount in the pot (about $600 including his bet) vs. the amount remaining in your stack (about $70) you have to make a crying call. you only have to be ahead slightly more than 10% to be +ev, so its a no-brainer.

 

[gopherblue]

I would’ve shoved the flop, but now I agree w chippy.

 

[AWenger]

Playing 9 handed and I look down at JJ on the button with a stack of just over $300.
Utg (young Asian guy capable of raising light) opens to $22, utg+1 call, mid position ($500 stack) calls, next guy calls, folded to me.

Just to recap, and help think about, the pot and pot odds from your and your opponents perspectives, playing $1/$3, with 1 raiser and 3 callers at $22, the pot is now $92.

I figured it was possible, but unlikely anyone had kk or aa, since they should have 3 bet, so I went with $110, hoping to take down the hand or at the very least isolate someone with maybe aq or ak.

With that many callers you need to make a big re-raise to price them out, so raise to 5x the original raise is ok, and a shove is ok, and maybe even better. With $110, you have $190 left.

Raising to $110, the pot is now $202, and any of the opponents could complete the call for $88. They're getting over 2:1 on a call, and assuming you're pot committed, the implied pot odds are 4.5:1 on a call for your opponent, assuming he can improve on the flop to beat your hand. (That's the pot of $202 + your stack of $190 to their call of $88). (I may be screwing these terms up)

Shoving never occurred to me with my but that’s maybe something I should think more about for the future.

Definitely consider it. Shoving here might also look like AK, and you could get a call from TT, 99, 88, or worse.

Original raiser folded, so did utg+1, big stack thought for about 20-30 seconds and called, last guy folded so we went heads up to a flop of Opponent checked to me. Thoughts on his possible holdings and my next move?

After big stack calls, the pot is now $290, and you have $190 left.

I'd put his range on, TT, 88, 77, or smaller pairs,... AK, maybe AQ, maybe even suited connectors, slim chance of QQ, 99, 22. You're ahead of a wide majority of his range. You're a 75%/%25 favorite against AK or AQ.

I thought about the shove, but ended up raising $120. My reasoning was that I thought I was more likely to get a call from just overcards for that price, rather than a shove for $200, but I’ll admit that it’s an odd size and doesn’t leave me much of a stack left. I had a terrible run of cards recently and am just back from a self imposed break, so it’s possible I was subconsciously being a wuss as well.
He thought for a bit and called.

Pot is $290, and you bet $120, so pot is $410. He only needs to call $120. By only betting $120, you gave him 3.4 to 1 odds to call. He only needs to be around 22% to win in those cases to get the right odds to call. (although that's ignoring the last $70, which is probably going in in anyway.) Even if you shove on the turn for $190, he's still getting 2.5:1 to call. (Pot would be $480, and he would need to call $190.), so he would need around 29% equity to make the mathematically correct call. And he may even be ahead of your range [edit: some of your range] if he has AK.

 

[ChaosRock]

Shove pre. As played, shove flop. As played, call turn.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I like the $110 reraise pre. Shoving is a little too big there, and you're begging to either win $90 or only get action when you're way behind (or maybe sometimes a flip). A big-but-not-blowout raise stands to get you heads-up.

That flop is a shove all day, no question. Betting small there is silly. You should expect to have the best hand almost all the time, the pot is $286 before rake, and you only have about $190 left. Don't bet small and make it a close decision for overcards. A bet of $120 is laying Villain 406:120, or about 3.38:1 (plus basically a guarantee he's getting your remaining $70 if he spikes a pair, plus the odd chance you're weak-tight and he can steal a $646 pot for a mere $70 risk). And guess what? AK is about a 3:1 dog in this spot against JJ. So you're laying him proper odds to chase a pair, and a call with two overs is correct. If you shove for $190, on the other hand, he's only getting 2.5:1, not enough to chase, making it a mistake if he calls.

You're getting your stack in the pot no matter what here. The pot is too big to be worrying about saving token amounts of money or roping overcards in for an extra bet. Just shove.

And yes, you have to call the turn because you're getting 10.23:1 on your money. You can't pour over 3/4 of your stack into a huge pot and then abandon it out of fear of a guy spiking a pair, unless your goal is to go broke.

 

[gopherblue]

Just because you’re in Australia and it’s 2:18am, doesn’t mean you can leave us hanging here.

Wake up!

 

[navels]

I used to struggle with pocket jacks until I found this great strategy video:

 

[EventHorizonVII]

Jacks are one of those pocket hands that can get you in real trouble. If you are short stacked...jam it. Deep...don't bomb the pot.

With 3 unknown players already in? I'd fold.

 

[Perthmike]

Just because you’re in Australia and it’s 2:18am, doesn’t mean you can leave us hanging here.

Wake up!

Hahaha. Well it’s 5:30am so that’s a good compromise. Much to my relief he turned over pocket 10s. Not what I expected and I don’t like how he played that at all, but oh well.

Thanks for all the comments, it’ definitely gives me something to think about, which is nice because I’m working hard to keep improving. Being better means I can buy heaps more chips haha.

I guess I made a mistake on the flop really, I didn’t bother calculating the odds before I bet, but as @Jimulacrum and @AWenger I gave him good odds to chase potential over cards, which were his likeliest holdings.

Great outcome for me really, but I couldn’t help but think I got a bit lucky that he had the 10s.

Oh and I cashed out $650 shortly afterwards and banked $450 profit.

 

[Perthmike]

I should add that with $70 left, I was folding to I turn card. I was just trying to get more of his cash in the pot with the flop bet.

Things would have got interested if my stack had been $400 at the start of the hand. $170 is closer to that value at which I may fold a shitty turn card, which is partially why I’m trying to analyse the hand.

With a bigger stack, do I have more reason to shove the flop? Or less?

 

[AWenger]

Things would have got interested if my stack had been $400 at the start of the hand. $170 is closer to that value at which I may fold a shitty turn card, which is partially why I’m trying to analyse the hand.
With a bigger stack, do I have more reason to shove the flop? Or less?

This is a good question. With a stack of $400 and facing a raise to $22 + 3 callers, I might think about making a raise slightly bigger than $110, and hope to take it down or get 1 caller, so you can set up your remaning stack to be about the size of the pot, and have a pot-sized all-in on the flop. There may also an argument calling the $22 (which is would be 18 times your stack of $400) and hope to set mine.

If your stack is much bigger than $400, then maybe play JJ like it's 44, and flat call and try to set mine. It can be prudent to tread lightly with Jacks, otherwise you might only get action when you're way behind, like Jimulacrum mentioned above.

Shoving is a little too big there, and you're begging to either win $90 or only get action when you're way behind (or maybe sometimes a flip)

 

[Perthmike]

This is a good question. With a stack of $400 and facing a raise to $22 + 3 callers, I might think about making a raise slightly bigger than $110, and hope to take it down or get 1 caller, so you can set up your remaning stack to be about the size of the pot, and have a pot-sized all-in on the flop. There may also an argument calling the $22 (which is would be 18 times your stack of $400) and hope to set mine.

If your stack is much bigger than $400, then maybe play JJ like it's 44, and flat call and try to set mine. It can be prudent to tread lightly with Jacks, otherwise you might only get action when you're way behind, like Jimulacrum mentioned above.

I can see the set mining argument if my stack were bigger. It’s something I want to think more about because my plan is to play 5/5 more regularly in the near future.

With $300 and $91 in the pot, I just wanted to take a big stab at stealing or isolating at a 1/3 table. $22 and 4 callers is fairly rare at this level, although in this instance I didn’t think it meant anyone had any super premium holdings.

 

[AWenger]

With $300 and $91 in the pot, I just wanted to take a big stab at stealing or isolating at a 1/3 table. $22 and 4 callers is fairly rare at this level, although in this instance I didn’t think it meant anyone had any super premium holdings.

Agree about the line of action to take a big stab at stealing or isolating. That's what you want with JJ. The hand from the OP is probably one of the best situations ever to wake up to JJ -- on the button, facing raise from an early player who can mix it up, and many callers (no one re-raising).

 

[JustinInMN]

I like the sizing preflop of $110, if you get called in one spot it sets up a situation where you will have $190 behind in a pot of about $230, so you should be moving in on most favorable flops. And this is a favorable flop, so I don't know what you are accomplishing by only betting $120 on the flop? You can't fold for $70 more anywhere else in the hand. You couldn't even fold on an unfavorable turn card as played.

So I think all that really happened was you laid a better price than you should have to the Ax, Kx hands when you were in a position to get full value from all the pocket pairs that care to bluff catch. Not to mention, nothing about villian's line screams QQ+, sure villian could have A9 or some 9x connector, but you're paying that off anyway, and it's not nearly often enough to outweigh the value you can get when you're ahead.

I do think moving in pf is problematic because at a 15x reraise you will only get action from QQ+ and I think everything worse than you (even maybe TT) will fold, so that's kind of the worst of both worlds.

Good news is I think you won the same as you would have if you just moved in on the flop, but this would've been a tragic mistake if villian had a K that would've folded for $190 but found a call for $120.