How would secondary chips work? (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

We’ve all parroted “casinos are required to keep a secondary set in case the primary chips are compromised, so they can swap them out.”
How would that work?
What would cause primary chips to be compromised? Counterfeiting? Somebody harvests all the $5s? Flood? Locusts? (I assume counterfeiting)
So how would the secondary rack be rolled out? If they just start using the secondary’s, but continue cashing in the primary’s, they’re screwed. If the stop cashing out the primary’s, they’re screwing honest people.
I don’t get it. What am I missing?

 

[mike32]

There was at least one casino in a Chiproom sale that had both primary and secondary used chips. Might have been Empress?

 

[upNdown]

There was at least one casino in a Chiproom sale that had both primary and secondary used chips. Might have been Empress?

Maybe PCA? I feel like I’ve seen casino used PCA $5’s

 

[WedgeRock]

Think of the Bellagio robbery. Some masked man jets out the door with an unknown amount of casino chips.

Rather than shut down all operations to get a handle of the loss, the casino rolls out the secondaries. They refill the wells on each table, then trade dollar-for-dollar each players chips.

It would take awhile, for sure, but better than shutting down entirely.

 

[BearMetal]

Do all denominations have secondaries? Seems like if they are created in case of counterfeiting, you'd definitely want, nay, need the higher values. In general, secondaries seem to crop up in the lower denoms.

And are they no longer necessary now with the enhanced security of Paulson chips?

 

[WedgeRock]

And are they no longer necessary now with the enhanced security of Paul

The gaming laws of some states require secondaries. Is it Missouri requires secondaries of all denoms, including 50¢ chips.

 

[upNdown]

Rather than shut down all operations to get a handle of the loss, the casino rolls out the secondaries. They refill the wells on each table, then trade dollar-for-dollar each players chips.

What next? What happens the next day? Do they continue trading dollar for dollar for players who had their chips in security boxes, or in their pocket books, or just stored at home?
If so, what has been accomplished?

 

[WedgeRock]

What next? What happens the next day? Do they continue trading dollar for dollar for players who had their chips in security boxes, or in their pocket books, or just stored at home?
If so, what has been accomplished?

If you take chips home, that's at your own risk, I would assume.

I'm sure they wouldn't be too worried about $1s and $5s and $25s, as likely a cash grab would be for high denom chips. And, if you were a poker player (for example) that had chips in a locker, I'm sure they'd cash those out. But I assume they could eventually figure out what denoms were compromised and they would cash in unaffected denoms.

I expect they'd keep the secondaries in play until the primaries were recovered, or, if they weren't recovered, use the secondaries as the new primary and order a new set of secondaries...

 

[BearMetal]

None of this explains why secondaries are universally better than primaries! What, they saving the "best for last" kind of mentality?

 

[Darthhoodie]

None of this explains why secondaries are universally better than primaries! What, they saving the "best for last" kind of mentality?

What makes them better usually is that they are uncirculated and minty fresh. As far as the look, most casino's don't have a clue as to designing a chip, I would defer to a dozen or so pcf'ers before a casino on chip colors and edge spot looks.

As to the OP i guess you would be screwed if you went home with the primary chips and they changed out the secondary chips. Although I feel like if you came about them honestly they would know and probably honor them. Still a risk that they wouldn't.

 

[upNdown]

If you take chips home, that's at your own risk, I would assume.

I'm sure they wouldn't be too worried about $1s and $5s and $25s, as likely a cash grab would be for high denom chips. And, if you were a poker player (for example) that had chips in a locker, I'm sure they'd cash those out. But I assume they could eventually figure out what denoms were compromised and they would cash in unaffected denoms.

I expect they'd keep the secondaries in play until the primaries were recovered, or, if they weren't recovered, use the secondaries as the new primary and order a new set of secondaries...

Your answer doesn’t satisfy me. You’ve got a couple of “I’m sures” (how sure?) and a couple of “I assumes” in there. I’m not bashing you, I appreciate you trying to work through the problem with me. But you seem to be working from a point of “this works” and then rationalizing how or why.
I’d thinking from a point of “how would this be implemented and does it make sense?”
By the way, did the Bellagio actually roll out their secondary’s after the theft?

 

[Darthhoodie]

https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/casinos-win-robbed-gunpoint/story?id=12531632

 

[Steppenwolf]

As far as the look, most casino's don't have a clue as to designing a chip, I would defer to a dozen or so pcf'ers before a casino on chip colors and edge spot looks.

As the devil's advocate on this comment, perhaps the casinos are smarter than you give them credit for. Ugly chips and seemingly unintentional sets that disgust your chipping sensibilities? Does it ever make you want to give them back? LOL!

 

[RudysNYC]

The nation-wide standard exists from the early days of modern casino gambling. When the Crosby family still owned Resorts International in AC, they had a small flood of counterfeits that could've screwed them. AC followed suit quickly after (Resorts was the only casino in AC at the time).,

Your answer doesn’t satisfy me. You’ve got a couple of “I’m sures” (how sure?) and a couple of “I assumes” in there. I’m not bashing you, I appreciate you trying to work through the problem with me. But you seem to be working from a point of “this works” and then rationalizing how or why.
I’d thinking from a point of “how would this be implemented and does it make sense?”
By the way, did the Bellagio actually roll out their secondary’s after the theft?

Casinos would assume, rightly so, that any potential culprit wouldn't stick around after perpetuating their crime. For instance, if someone introduced counterfeit $500s at the Flamingo, they probably wouldn't stick around the Flamingo while they try to figure out who/what/when. The perp would probably lay low for a bit and try to introduce them at some later point in time.

 

[redwine]

What next? What happens the next day? Do they continue trading dollar for dollar for players who had their chips in security boxes, or in their pocket books, or just stored at home?
If so, what has been accomplished?

This is a good point. For the rolling out of secondaries to have any effect they must stop accepting primaries for cashing. Not sure how that exactly happens though...

 

[upNdown]

https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/casinos-win-robbed-gunpoint/story?id=12531632

So the point is that rolling out secondary chips allow casinos to closely scrutinize who is cashing in the high denom primary chips? Makes some sense.
But from my understanding, casinos are already scrutinizing who cashes in high denim chips, especially since this theft. I wish I had links, but I remember reading an article that if you walk up to the window with a $5k chip in most Vegas casinos, they’re going to want to know where you got it.

 

[redwine]

This is a good point. For the rolling out of secondaries to have any effect they must stop accepting primaries for cashing. Not sure how that exactly happens though...

Maybe they cash out all customers currently in the casino, and pause cashing out other primaries until thieves are caught? But if they're never caught?

 

[RudysNYC]

So the point is that rolling out secondary chips allow casinos to closely scrutinize who is cashing in the high denom primary chips? Makes some sense.
But from my understanding, casinos are already scrutinizing who cashes in high denim chips, especially since this theft. I wish I had links, but I remember reading an article that if you walk up to the window with a $5k chip in most Vegas casinos, they’re going to want to know where you got it.

If you rob a TD Bank at 3:15pm, you probably won't try to deposit your loot at the same TD at 4pm lol. They know that whoever introduced the fakes won't be cashing them at that same time. Same thing with stolen chips, very few people who steal a large amount of chips from people cash them immediately--they almost always cash it out slowly but surely or try to sell the chips at less than face value.

 

[Darthhoodie]

As the devil's advocate on this comment, perhaps the casinos are smarter than you give them credit for. Ugly chips and seemingly unintentional sets that disgust your chipping sensibilities? Does it ever make you want to give them back? LOL!

Touche my friend touche!

 

[JWC]

From the Missouri regulations:

11 CSR 45-5.110 Primary, Secondary and Reserve Sets of Gaming Chips
PURPOSE: This rule establishes the process for having primary, secondary and reserve sets of gaming chips.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by the com- mission, each riverboat shall have a primary set of value chips, a separate secondary set of value chips and a nonvalue chip reserve which shall conform to the color and design specifications set forth in 11 CSR 45-5.100. An approved secondary set of value chips and reserve nonvalue chips shall be placed into active play whenever the primary set is removed.
(A) The secondary set of value chips shall have different secondary colors than the primary set and shall be required for all denominations.
(B) Each holder of a Class A license shall have a nonvalue chip reserve for each color utilized in the riverboat with a design insert or symbol different from those nonvalue chips comprising the primary set.
(C) The holder of a Class A license shall remove the primary set of gaming chips from active play whenever—
1. A determination is made by the licensee that the riverboat gaming operation is taking on a significant number of counterfeit chips;
2. Any other impropriety or defect in the utilization of the primary set of chips makes removal of the primary set necessary; or
3. The director so directs.
(D) Whenever the primary set of chips is removed from active play, the licensee shall immediately notify a representative of the commission as to the reason for this occurrence.

 

[allforcharity]

A lot of casinos DGAF about their chip design from the "overall esthestic" point-of-view because their use of contrasting colours and spot patterns are really only for quick identification of values and numbers during play from their eyes-in-the-sky. For a set of chips that (hopefully) will never see active play on the floor, they probably take design even less seriously, and are mostly just making sure gaming regulation rules are followed and security features are intact.

It doesn't have to be robbery or counterfeiting to cause a(n eventual) secondary chip rollout. I can imagine any scenario where chip security can be compromised for a small amount of time. A fire, flood, earthquake, terrorist incident, or anything else that can trigger a mass evacuation from the property.

 

[WedgeRock]

Your answer doesn’t satisfy me. You’ve got a couple of “I’m sures” (how sure?) and a couple of “I assumes” in there.

I have no first hand knowledge of how they work. I just thought about the existence of secondaries, then worked backward toward the need (and how it would arise), then created a solution for how to handle my concocted need scenario.

I intentionally used vague language because I didn't want to give the appearance of speaking intelligently on a topic that I don't know from first hand knowledge.

A casino manager would be better suited to answer this question if you want certainty.

By the way, did the Bellagio actually roll out their secondary’s after the theft?

No idea.

I don't know if that's the casino's call or the NGC would require it.

IIRC, the Bellagio thief had extremely high denom chips (I recall he had cranberries that he couldn't cash in because it was too obvious). If the casino makes the decision, I'm sure they go through a checklist of questions. What denoms were affected, how much is that denom used on the floor, what is our exposure, how much of a pain in the ass would it be to bring secondaries of all denoms in? I imagine it would be a case of risk assessment and cost-benefit analysis.

 

[WedgeRock]

I remember reading an article that if you walk up to the window with a $5k chip in most Vegas casinos, they’re going to want to know where you got it.

"It fell off a truck."

Probably need an explanation that keeps the chip inside the casino, tho...

 

[JWC]

I have no first hand knowledge of how they work. I just thought about the existence of secondaries, then worked backward toward the need (and how it would arise), then created a solution for how to handle my concocted need scenario.

I intentionally used vague language because I didn't want to give the appearnace of speaking intelligently on a topic that I don't know from first hand knowledge.

A casino manager would be better suited to answer this question if you want certainty.



No idea.

I don't know if that's the casino's call or the NGC would require it.

IIRC, they thief had extremely high denom chips. I'm sure the cage knew only x denom was taken. If the casino makes the decision, I'm sure they go through a checklist of questions. What denoms were affected, how much is that denom used on the floor, what is our exposure, how much of a pain in the ass would it be to bring secondaries of all denoms in? I imagine it would be a case of risk assessment and cost-benefit analysis.

I re-reviewing Nevada’s chip regulations, I don’t believe that Nevada requires secondary chips.

 

[allforcharity]

And as far as how secondary chips "work", all the evidence I've seen boils down to this:

1) Casino has secondary set of chips made as per local gaming laws. They never see play, and remain in mint condition and barely handled.
2) Casino shuts operation for whatever reason.
3) An enterprising businessperson acquires all the secondary chips after they are no longer a legal liability to the casino corporation.
4) Said enterprising businessperson sells the mint secondaries to the slobbering masses on PCF. Much money changes hands.
5) A never-ending cycle of exchange happens between PCF members and also others in the wider world. Much more money changes hands.
6) Various emotions ranging from elation to despondency to rage are exhibited by persons involved in any of steps 1 through 5 above.,

 

[Jambine]

What next? What happens the next day? Do they continue trading dollar for dollar for players who had their chips in security boxes, or in their pocket books, or just stored at home?
If so, what has been accomplished?

Casinos in Nevada (and Colorado BTW) are required to publish their intent to retire house checks. I believe it's something like 60-90 days notice so you have time to cash any checks you have

 

[mike32]

I think most large value chips in Nevada are identifiable by RFID, so each chip can be traced. But like @WedgeRock I am not sure about this. It kind of made the stolen cranberries worthless.

 

[mnebesny]

If you take chips home, that's at your own risk, I would assume.

I'm sure they wouldn't be too worried about $1s and $5s and $25s, as likely a cash grab would be for high denom chips. And, if you were a poker player (for example) that had chips in a locker, I'm sure they'd cash those out. But I assume they could eventually figure out what denoms were compromised and they would cash in unaffected denoms.

I expect they'd keep the secondaries in play until the primaries were recovered, or, if they weren't recovered, use the secondaries as the new primary and order a new set of secondaries...

"It fell off a truck."

Probably need an explanation that keeps the chip inside the casino, tho...

Practically all casinos now how some kind of 'players club' deal to track how much you've won/lost/gambled. So the casino knows roughly how many chips most players should have. This should help in the process of switching out/checking the validity of primary chips

 

[allforcharity]

I'm sure that most (all) casinos don't want very high value chips walking out the door. The chip itself is the property of the casino, and I suppose taking any value chip off the casino property can be considered theft. They definitely don't want anybody cracking them open to reveal all the security features to see how they can be duplicated, circumvented, or reverse-engineered.

 

[WedgeRock]

I'm sure that most (all) casinos don't want very high value chips walking out the door.

I have no idea of cost... I recall hearing the boat chips (with no security features) were $1.35ish per chip, on average (YMMV). Assume high value chips with security features are $8 per chip. I am perfectly happy selling a $1000 chip for $992 profit.