Home game ruling (1 Viewer)

[Hornet]

So this situation happened last night in our home game ... curious how people would handle it.

The game is 1-2-5 Pot Limit Omaha variations, and we happened to be playing BigO. All of the players in the game have a good understanding of the basic rules, some better than others, and all have played at the local casino poker room. Given the size of the game and the players’ experience, we generally try to enforce casino rules. But we self-deal, so sometimes mistakes are made where people act out of turn, for example, and there is some flexibility in that regard.

Player A raises in EP to 25. Player A and I host the game and share floor duties, although I will defer to him on most rule nuances. I call. Player B, an experienced player, straddled for 5 with one red chip UTG. He throws a single black chip out and doesn’t take his red chip back. 105 not coincidentally happens to be near a pot sized bet. UTG and UTG+1 (both limpets) immediately fold. Player A, the initial raiser, waits for the pot to be made, change to be given, but when everyone is waiting for him to act, he asks Player B if that was a raise, to which Player B replies yes. We then get into a debate about the one chip rule. Since we are both in the hand, I suggest someone not in the hand should make a ruling, but that doesn’t really happen. Player B basically says “do whatever you want, but I obviously meant to raise.” Given that the normal floor people were in the hand and conflicted, we allowed the raise to stand.

So two questions ...

(1) how do you address the one chip rule in a relatively high stakes game with experienced players; and
(2) how to you handle rulings when the people normally making rulings are in the hand and conflicted?

 

[krafticus]

The blind was part of the pot at that point, and his 1 black chip bet constitutes a call. Plain and Simple.

 

[Gobbs]

First the ruling: It doesn’t matter what he intended to do or that he already had a chip out there. He put in a single chip without announcing a raise. It’s a call.

Second, the rule should be followed by everybody and uniformly and strictly enforced, regardless of experience or stakes.

Third, you should have all rules printed and clearly stated, even if it’s something as simple as stating you will use RRoP or the TDA rules for all rulings. That way, there is usually no question. In this case, the rules are pretty straight-forward in RRoP and the TDA rules. That covers it regardless of who is in the pot. (NOTE: On extremely rare occasions, this may not cut it. In those situations, you simply have to act with complete fairness and hope it’s good enough.)

 

[JoeBGo]

I would argue that 1 chip without announcing “raise” would only count as a call.

 

[Frogzilla]

Dropping the overchip is 100% a call by rules. If it’s high stakes with experienced players I would lean towards enforcing it. Maybe depends on how it’s dealt.

If people normally making the rulings are in a hand and I’m not, I’d try to help. If it’s my game and I’m in the hand, I’d default in favor of my guest. Specifically, I’d let this player make his bet a raise against me if he tells me that’s his intention

 

[Josh Kifer]

That's a call. Not a raise.

 

[BGinGA]

(1) how do you address the one chip rule in a relatively high stakes game with experienced players?

Same way I address it any other time. It's a call. No exceptions.

(2) how to you handle rulings when the people normally making rulings are in the hand and conflicted?

It should be covered in your written rules. If those rules require interpretation (a very rare case if properly written), then I defer ruling responsibility to the most rules-knowledgeable player not involved in the hand. If everybody (including myself) is involved, then I make the ruling, just as if nobody was involved. Any ruling by anybody should be backed up by the written rules, and the applicable portion of the rules should be identified during the ruling.

Player B, an experienced player, straddled for 5 with one red chip UTG. He throws a single black chip out and doesn’t take his red chip back. 105 not coincidentally happens to be near a pot sized bet.

Strike-out applied above to the non-pertinent parts of the hand description. Tossing out a single oversize chip with no verbal statement of an intended raise is a call, ALWAYS. No matter the circumstances, pot size, player experience, intention, facial expression, other actions, or time-of-day / day-of-week / spring-summer-fall-winter or any damn thing else. It's a call, period.


EDIT: Kick-in-the-nutz to the dealer in this particular hand who failed at his job to monitor the action and immediately verbally identify and announce the black chip toss as a call, so as to not cause any confusion with the next person to act.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Strike-out applied above to the non-pertinent parts of the hand description. Tossing out a single oversize chip with no verbal statement of an intended raise is a call, ALWAYS. No matter the circumstances, pot size, player experience, intention, facial expression, other actions, or time-of-day / day-of-week / spring-summer-fall-winter or any damn thing else. It's a call, period.

But it was a harvest moon!!!!

 

[surfik]

Gobbs is the Man

 

[Hornet]

EDIT: Kick-in-the-nutz to the dealer in this particular hand who failed at his job to monitor the action and immediately verbally identify and announce the black chip toss as a call, so as to not cause any confusion with the next person to act.

With certain people in the game, we’re lucky if the dealer doesn’t prematurely expose the flop, let alone announce the action. Self dealing has been a problem for the group in general, but nobody wants the burden of doing it all night.

 

[Rhodeman77]

It is a call as stated. If he had pulled back his $5 chip then tossed it back in with the $100 chip then it would have been a raise to $105.

 

[surfik]

First the ruling: It doesn’t matter what he intended to do or that he already had a chip out there. He put in a single chip without announcing a raise. It’s a call.

Second, the rule should be followed by everybody and uniformly and strictly enforced, regardless of experience or stakes.

Third, you should have all rules printed and clearly stated, even if it’s something as simple as stating you will use RRoP or the TDA rules for all rulings. That way, there is usually no question. In this case, the rules are pretty straight-forward in RRoP and the TDA rules. That covers it regardless of who is in the pot. (NOTE: On extremely rare occasions, this may not cut it. In those situations, you simply have to act with complete fairness and hope it’s good enough.)

Don't you think that be was waiting to see what the action will be. If someone would pot he would say that he just call. At least it happened on my home turf. Experienced players often would try to take advantage on lack of official regulations or other players.

 

[Hornet]

It should be covered in your written rules.

We don’t have written rules, which seems to be part of the problem. Do people mainly use RRoP or customized written rules? Not sure where to start.

 

[Hornet]

Don't you think that be was waiting to see what the action will be. If someone would pot he would say that he just call. At least it happened on my home turf. Experienced players often would try to take advantage on lack of official regulations or other players.

Nobody thought he was angle shooting, but that’s certainly possible.

 

[surfik]

We don’t have written rules, which seems to be part of the problem. Do people mainly use RRoP or customized written rules? Not sure where to start.

Ask any nearby casino for copy. They obligeted to present you with one.

 

[abby99]

We don’t have written rules, which seems to be part of the problem. Do people mainly use RRoP or customized written rules? Not sure where to start.

I use RROP for private games, with a few modifications.

http://www.pokercoach.us/

 

[BGinGA]

We don’t have written rules, which seems to be part of the problem. Do people mainly use RRoP or customized written rules? Not sure where to start.

RROP v11 is a great start, and certainly better than having nothing to reference. TDA rules are also good (primarily focusing on tournaments). You can print out either online.

Years ago, @Gobbs and I wrote a specific set of tournament rules that is kept in compliance with both of the above, reorganized into sections (easier to search) with a few language changes (easier to understand) and a couple of minor changes to fit our group's specific needs. I always have a hard copy on hand.

 

[BGinGA]

Don't you think that be was waiting to see what the action will be. If someone would pot he would say that he just call. At least it happened on my home turf. Experienced players often would try to take advantage on lack of official regulations or other players.

And ^this^ is exactly why it is always considered a call, and never considered a raise. Applied the same way every time, it totally eliminates any opportunity of angle-shooting.

 

[JustinInMN]

We don’t have written rules, which seems to be part of the problem. Do people mainly use RRoP or customized written rules? Not sure where to start.

Like @BGinGA and others, I favor having some form of written rules that at a minimum references a complete rule site like Roberts. I have examples linked in my signature.

Also PCF has this "official" thread full of examples.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/hosting-resources-posted-rules-etiquette.36508/

 

[Gobbs]

Gobbs is the Man

I’m not sure why, but who am I to argue? On the other hand, Mrs. Gobbs would beg to differ.