Game of Thrones (HBO Series - NO BOOK SPOILERS) (14 Viewers)

[ReallyGoodUsername]

A debate on tactics has to be interwoven with points based on the show, otherwise the show becomes disingenuous and develops plot holes that people would bitch about.

The Dothraki always won using a full on charge. Sure, no earthly calvary has defeated pikemen, but Dothraki aren't from our world. Nor are dragons, or walking dead. You call it "plot armor" because you don't grasp that a mounted force could come out on top. I accept your premise on earth, but not on the world of Westeros (or whatever the whole of their planet is called). It was written into the story, over and over. To ignore it now would be terrible writing.

But if you want a real world example, General Custer never lost a cavalry charge, so he stopped sending out scouts.

Then he lost big-time. We learned from his mistakes. The Dothraki didn't have the advantage we have today, so they got to learn that tatic the hard way.

Agree to disagree you can’t take what we know from the show and apply it factually. We’re only viewing their world through a storyline full of embellishment and exaggeration for the purpose of entertainment (such as the NK being the best javelin thrower in the history of the galaxy at the ice lake but then he can’t hit dany or her dragon for 50 ft away). As for Custer you first use him as a real world example of an unstoppable Calvary charger but then say he eventually got powned so I’m not sure it’s supporting your point. Regardless of whether it would or not it’s not comparable given it’s a different time period with different tactics and weapons than we’ve seen on GOT.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Argument #1: The undead army needed to be reduced before getting to the walls. They easily swarmed over the walls anyway, but if they hadn't taken some losses the swarm would have climbed every wall even faster.

Argument #2: nobody knew how long it took to raise the dead. Previously, a dead body was dead for days before it awoke. There was no reason to suspect the dead could just revive so quickly that it would join the same battle.

Really, there was no plan that Winterfell could take that wouldn't result in a total loss. That is why they wanted Cersei's army.

Put the Dothraki in the castle to be slaughtered on foot? Bad idea - and likely the Dothraki would never accept that plan.

Now if you want to argue catapult placement, fine. I have no idea what they were thinking. If you want to argue for battlefield illumination... well I'll argue that first. But Dothraki not doing the thing that their GOD tells them that they will do to win all battles...

Ok so @Perthmike did an excellent job in replying to your concerns and I agree with everything he said especially when defining to the limitations of Dothraki hordes.

I will say regardless of Dothraki fighting ability two key facts were known by Jon and all the other generals:
1) the only way to win the battle was to kill the NK
2) the NK would not be fighting in the front of the army or be near the zombies at all. This is based on every single previous encounter with the NK (frozen lake, hardhome, attack on bran and the original three eyed raven, fist of the first men, etc) which was known by first hand experience by someone Jon had been taking to (himself, Bran, and Sam)

Thus they must have known any frontal assault on the zombie army, like the one done by the Dothraki, wouldn’t achieve their only objective of killing the NK (the only way to win the battle) and was thus a waste of troops but still did it anyway.

By using the flanking approach I mentioned, they could hope to catch the NK either from behind the zombies (where he usually was) or if they saw a point where he was vulnerable like when he fell of his dragon and was alone without any zombies near him then try to attack him directly. Note - this would still be in the same nature of the Dothraki culture and fighting tactic.

 

[Stevosan]

The rent's too high and this episode was too damn dark. Vote for me in 2020!

 

[Stevosan]

I wasn't bothered that so few named characters died, but the scenes at the end of the battle appeared as if every other soldier in an army of 1,000's were all dead and only the named characters survived standing alone or with another named character. There's plot armor, and then there's God Mode Armor.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I wasn't bothered that so few named characters died, but the scenes at the end of the battle appeared as if every other soldier in an army of 1,000's were all dead and only the named characters survived standing alone or with another named character. There's plot armor, and then there's God Mode Armor.

This

 

[Perthmike]

I wasn't bothered that so few named characters died, but the scenes at the end of the battle appeared as if every other soldier in an army of 1,000's were all dead and only the named characters survived standing alone or with another named character. There's plot armor, and then there's God Mode Armor.

But don't worry they will magic a new army out of thin air for the next episode

 

[colter ripton]

Yeah the dothraki charge was dumb. Why didnt they have dragon glass weapons? What was the plan if melisandre didnt show up and set their swords on fire. Their normal weapons are known to be useless against the dead. So what, they were just going to charge into 100k plus zombies with useless weapons that they couldnt even kill them with?

I would have put them on the wall with dragon glass weapons. And bows. Even if they are not as bad ass without their horses and curvy swords normally, you still know that they are 100 percent useless without weapons that will kill the dead.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Snow ran alone in front of his army at the Battle of the Bastards and fucked up the plan, so it's no wonder they'd do the same at Winterfell.

He's a terrible commander and boring as shit to watch on top of it. Joffrey is preferable onscreen. The only saving grace snow has is that Bran is the absolute worst

The Dothraki were modeled after The Mongals, Huns, etc. So it makes sense to compare their tactics in the show

A light cavalry force (make no mistake, that is exactly what the Dothraki are) win battles by using their mobility, not charging into massed ranks of infantry that outnumber them

They pepper the foe with arrows then fall back, then do it again. They cause their foe to break ranks, exposing portions of the army to flanking efforts, wearing down enemy morale and tiring them out

The problem is that their enemies morale and fatigue can't be effected

The NK can raise the dead very quickly, Snow AND others who were at hardhome know this

Sending the cavalry to "reduce the numbers" of wights that can attack the castle makes zero sense. The cavalry has no chance and will only be added to the enemy numbers

Don't want the dothraki inside the castle? Fine, hide them outside to make a rear attack on the enemy once they are engaged at the walls

The wights got over the walls so easily because the defenders spent too many resources exposed outside and didn't have enough troops to hold the walls

USA USA USA!

 

[Perthmike]

Next time i find myself as general in a medieval battle, I'm bringing in @Anthony Martino and @ReallyGoodUsername as my co-commanders.

We will crush all comers

 

[Anthony Martino]

Next time i find myself as general in a medieval battle, I'm bringing in @Anthony Martino and @ReallyGoodUsername as my co-commanders.

We will crush all comers

PCF = Pike Cavalry Formations, what a twist!

 

[Perthmike]

I'd just like to say that if I were the battle commander I'd have littered dragonglass caltrops all over the field in front of the castle.

The entire undead army would drop dead from stab wounds to their feet. I win

 

[Poker Zombie]

Ok so @Perthmike did an excellent job in replying to your concerns and I agree with everything he said especially when defining to the limitations of Dothraki hordes.

I will say regardless of Dothraki fighting ability two key facts were known by Jon and all the other generals:
1) the only way to win the battle was to kill the NK
2) the NK would not be fighting in the front of the army or be near the zombies at all. This is based on every single previous encounter with the NK (frozen lake, hardhome, attack on bran and the original three eyed raven, fist of the first men, etc) which was known by first hand experience by someone Jon had been taking to (himself, Bran, and Sam)

Thus they must have known any frontal assault on the zombie army, like the one done by the Dothraki, wouldn’t achieve their only objective of killing the NK (the only way to win the battle) and was thus a waste of troops but still did it anyway.

By using the flanking approach I mentioned, they could hope to catch the NK either from behind the zombies (where he usually was) or if they saw a point where he was vulnerable like when he fell of his dragon and was alone without any zombies near him then try to attack him directly. Note - this would still be in the same nature of the Dothraki culture and fighting tactic.

I don't think flanking was even a remote possibility. The dead had them surrounded. Your plan would have failed, even more miserably, because in order to flank you would not have had bright flaming swords.

Your plan not just fails, but makes a hard to see episode even harder to see. Artistically, it lacks the impact that the dying light of the swords impacted onto the viewer.

 

[Wils]

If I see one more instance of jon snow going full idiot mode only to be miraculously rescued at the last second I’m going to scream.

And that's *before* s8e3's "completely surrounded by white walkers - I'm definitely going to die - oh look, I'm not!" moment - ouch!

 

[Perthmike]

And that's *before* s8e3's "completely surrounded by white walkers - I'm definitely going to die - oh look, I'm not!" moment - ouch!

Melisandre cast this protection on him

 

[Poker Zombie]

Well, I guess I'm pretty lucky. I mostly enjoyed the episode - except the lighting, and the use (misuse) of catapults.

It would suck to be one of you that have not enjoyed the show for 4 seasons, but still watch every episode, and find flaws that others can completely explain "why" and you still don't care... you are sticking these needles into your eyes and you are going to hate every god-forsaken moment until you can rejoice that it is over.

 

[Wils]

It’s just finished over here. Seriously disappointed in the knight king. 8 years of waiting to find out what dastardly deeds his evil genius brain has concocted only to find out that his head was as empty as Varys’s underpants...

Do we KNOW for sure that the night king/white walkers are no longer a threat? Yeah ignore the "they all died" stuff - who's to say they're defeated? I keep coming back to Tyrion's "we might see something else no one can" spiel in the crypt. Makes me wonder if he'd see that things aren't *quite* as over as people think... Otherwise why have him say that? It would be a missed opportunity for foreshadowing.

 

[Perthmike]

I'm actually super pumped for the next episode. I can't to see what their plans are next.

Sansa is gonna be like bitch I ain't taking my army down south, you take your dragons and go on your own.

 

[BonScot]

Do we KNOW for sure that the night king/white walkers are no longer a threat? Yeah ignore the "they all died" stuff - who's to say they're defeated? I keep coming back to Tyrion's "we might see something else no one can" spiel in the crypt. Makes me wonder if he'd see that things aren't *quite* as over as people think... Otherwise why have him say that? It would be a missed opportunity for foreshadowing.

I hope you’re right but I think that was that for the army of the dead...

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Well, I guess I'm pretty lucky. I mostly enjoyed the episode - except the lighting, and the use (misuse) of catapults.

It would suck to be one of you that have not enjoyed the show for 4 seasons, but still watch every episode, and find flaws that others can completely explain "why" and you still don't care... you are sticking these needles into your eyes and you are going to hate every god-forsaken moment until you can rejoice that it is over.

Yeah, I don't get this. I enjoy a good discussion about what is and isn't good with the show (or any other), but when people say, "That was terrible, this show has gone steadily downhill over the last two weeks, it sucks," and then continue to watch, it confuses me.

I had the same thing happen with The Walking Dead. For the first few seasons, I was glued to the couch on Sunday nights. I was still pretty happy with it through season 6, but I thought the quality dropped off pretty badly in season 7, and I started to get unhappy and bored with it. So I just stopped watching.

GoT is an entertaining escape from the real world. When it stops serving that purpose, do yourself a favor and stop watching. There are so many more quality TV shows, movies, books, video games, etc. than you'll ever have time for during your limited lifespan. Don't waste a minute on entertainment that is no longer entertaining.

 

[BonScot]

I'm actually super pumped for the next episode. I can't to see what their plans are next.

Sansa is gonna be like bitch I ain't taking my army down south, you take your dragons and go on your own.

Yeah she’ll say “you head down first blondie and I’ll meet ya there”

 

[Anthony Martino]

It would suck to be one of you that have not enjoyed the show for 4 seasons, but still watch every episode, and find flaws that others can completely explain "why" and you still don't care... you are sticking these needles into your eyes and you are going to hate every god-forsaken moment until you can rejoice that it is over.

HUMBUG!

 

[BonScot]

Yeah, I don't get this. I enjoy a good discussion about what is and isn't good with the show (or any other), but when people say, "That was terrible, this show has gone steadily downhill over the last two weeks, it sucks," and then continue to watch, it confuses me.

I had the same thing happen with The Walking Dead. For the first few seasons, I was glued to the couch on Sunday nights. I was still pretty happy with it through season 6, but I thought the quality dropped off pretty badly in season 7, and I started to get unhappy and bored with it. So I just stopped watching.

GoT is an entertaining escape from the real world. When it stops serving that purpose, do yourself a favor and stop watching. There are so many more quality TV shows, movies, books, video games, etc. than you'll ever have time for during your limited lifespan. Don't waste a minute on entertainment that is no longer entertaining.

It’s still a good show and better than most things on telly at the moment but I don’t think it’s living up to the standards set by the first few series. Maybe it’s unrealistic expectations. I’ll still watch it but will moan about it later

On saying that I still paid money to go watch the last 6 Star Wars films so what do I know?

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

I don't think flanking was even a remote possibility. The dead had them surrounded. Your plan would have failed, even more miserably, because in order to flank you would not have had bright flaming swords.

Your plan not just fails, but makes a hard to see episode even harder to see. Artistically, it lacks the impact that the dying light of the swords impacted onto the viewer.

Oh ok we’re going for visual impact? I’m out!

 

[Poker Zombie]

Oh ok we’re going for visual impact? I’m out!

How do you not go for visual impact? This is an art piece. It's designed for story-telling. It's not a Military Channel documentary.

Yes, bad writing can ruin a series. Lost - lost me episode 1 of season 2. You have a major gaffe in writing, and I quit watching. Walking Dead, I was done when Carl didn't shoot Negan. Totally out of character, so I quit watching - and I'm a freaking ZOMBIE!

Sure, there have been storytelling errors. Few stories have been perfect, or nearly so. It's the struggle with being a writer. Everybody expects you to be the expert on everything in the world, and the fantasy world. I find GoT to be excellent. From cinematography (excluding the latest episode), to interwoven plot lines, to convoulded (but understandable) politics, to multi-faceted characters. I understand why the the side of the living made most of the decisions they did, so it does not detract me from the story.

To sit and complain though... it's like going to an ex-girlfriend's wedding and complaining that she's making bad decisions. You do you, but I'm going to get up and leave your table.

 

[gopherblue]

The Wired article is the beginning and end of this discussion.

 

[ohio3302016]

Episode needed more scenes of Arya training.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

How do you not go for visual impact? This is an art piece. It's designed for story-telling. It's not a Military Channel documentary.

I prefaced my statements with "Preface - A debate on tactics has to be separate from points based on what happened in the show or else it's impossible to discuss it objectively." You replied without saying - I'm totally disregarding your preface - so I was replying with that same preface in mind and not expecting you to all of a sudden add in how the light would be bad or the "artistic" feeling it would give the audience.... for arguments sake though, you did right after say "I find GoT to be excellent. From cinematography (excluding the latest episode), to interwoven plot lines, to convoulded (but understandable) politics, to multi-faceted characters." so I see no reason why the awesome amazing show runners then take my ideas and make them work so I think they're still 100% valid tactically and show wise.

To sit and complain though... it's like going to an ex-girlfriend's wedding and complaining that she's making bad decisions. You do you, but I'm going to get up and leave your table.

Complaining is a thing people do no matter what. Talking about the battle from a tactical standpoint though isn't complaining, it's entirely different. Even if it was just complaining so what? We have free thought and freedom of speech. If you don't like it that's your opinion.

I'm done debating battle tactics here though cause it's clearly not what we're doing. Can't wait for Episode 4!

 

[Anthony Martino]

Yeah, I don't get this. I enjoy a good discussion about what is and isn't good with the show (or any other), but when people say, "That was terrible, this show has gone steadily downhill over the last two weeks, it sucks," and then continue to watch, it confuses me.

Well, they hooked me on the first three seasons, which I felt were fantastic. At that point you're invested in the conclusion (plus I read the books as well)

I don't hate the entirety of the series. There are supporting characters that are great to watch and do have excellent scenes. I just feel the overall quality of the series has greatly diminished since Season 3, and the showrunners have started diverging significantly from the flavor of the show that got me hooked in the first place (i.e. too many heroic deaths in this last episode compared with people not really dying heroically at all throughout the series)

I had the same thing happen with The Walking Dead. For the first few seasons, I was glued to the couch on Sunday nights. I was still pretty happy with it through season 6, but I thought the quality dropped off pretty badly in season 7, and I started to get unhappy and bored with it. So I just stopped watching.

I wanted to love TWD, but I hated it from the jump. The characters didn't make me care for them, they were ALL idiotic. Things were thrown in for the scenery without actually making sense (i.e. people just sat in their cars until they expired of natural causes in traffic jams so they could turn and then do a jump scare)

The only thing I enjoyed from TWD was the zombie makeup, which was fantastic. The difference between TWD and GOT is that I actually got hooked into GOT for three seasons, while TWD never got me hooked, so I felt I could stop watching.

 

[Anthony Martino]

We have free thought and freedom of speech. If you don't like it that's your opinion.

USA USA USA!

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Snow ran alone in front of his army at the Battle of the Bastards and fucked up the plan, so it's no wonder they'd do the same at Winterfell.

He's a terrible commander and boring as shit to watch on top of it. Joffrey is preferable onscreen. The only saving grace snow has is that Bran is the absolute worst

The Dothraki were modeled after The Mongals, Huns, etc. So it makes sense to compare their tactics in the show

A light cavalry force (make no mistake, that is exactly what the Dothraki are) win battles by using their mobility, not charging into massed ranks of infantry that outnumber them

They pepper the foe with arrows then fall back, then do it again. They cause their foe to break ranks, exposing portions of the army to flanking efforts, wearing down enemy morale and tiring them out

The problem is that their enemies morale and fatigue can't be effected

The NK can raise the dead very quickly, Snow AND others who were at hardhome know this

Sending the cavalry to "reduce the numbers" of wights that can attack the castle makes zero sense. The cavalry has no chance and will only be added to the enemy numbers

Don't want the dothraki inside the castle? Fine, hide them outside to make a rear attack on the enemy once they are engaged at the walls

The wights got over the walls so easily because the defenders spent too many resources exposed outside and didn't have enough troops to hold the walls

USA USA USA!

I love everything about this response. Especially the "only saving grace snow has is that Bran is the absolute worst"