Fun tournament hand (1 Viewer)

[JStew]

This may seem basic to some folks but I’m a pretty new player so would appreciate thoughts about the play. It was also a pretty entertaining hand.

Background - T10k home tournament with blind structure designed to last 3 to 3.5 hours. Low buy-in ($30). 18 guys. Pay top 4. Not a good player in the bunch but we like to get together and drink a few beers once a month. No hot dog roller yet but you guys me half convinced I need to buy one. 2 hours in. 12 guys left so we are playing 6 handed. Blinds at 600-1200 with 6 minutes to next blind level. No antes in this tournament. Blinds will quickly start driving some serious action. Table is tight passive. A re-raise often means the nuts. Most players are fit or fold.

The Hand

Stack sizes
SB 10k
BB 15k
Hero - 13.5k (M= 7.5)
UTG+1 25k
HJ 15k
Button 13k


Hero is UTG and looks down at . Fold, shove, limp, or raise?

 

[DrStrange]

Fair warning - - - I am not the best tournament player here and these days I rarely play anything but cash games.

Fold. Bad position plus a speculative hand with shallow stacks leads to bad outcomes. Given the villain description, Hero has a fair shot of winning the blinds here but when he doesn't, hero is almost certainly holding the worst hand, often in the worst position.

Hero should be focused on winning pots from late position - I'd be in favor of a raise holding QTs first to act on the button. Hero has to win one set of blinds (at least) each orbit - late position is where to win them.

DrStrange

 

[FDLmold]

Fold.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Push/fold chart says jam

 

[JStew]

Mistake #1 found. Hero min raises to 2500 leaving $11k behind. Good point on position as I tend to underestimate position and often pay dearly. UTG +1, button, small blind, and big blind call. Big blind thought long and hard and looked like he was deciding between a shove and a call. To the flop 5 friggin handed. Hero’s spidey senses are tingling as these fish don’t call even a min raise without something.

Hero holding Pot at $12,500. Flop comes . SB checks. BB checks. Action on hero. Check and see what develops or shove? Why do I have a feeling I’m about to find mistake #2.

 

[DrStrange]

TL-DR = go into check fold mode and hope for a multi-way slaughter

Hero's hand is weaker than it seems. Top & bottom pair on a dry board is strong, but here hero can be in bad shape, even drawing nearly dead.

But . . . Hero has less than a pot sized bet left. Lots of draws are calling an all-in where hero is in fact the favorite. Sadly every hand that beats Hero will also call a less than pot sized bet. Worse, a schooling effect is possible where each successive villain finds the odd getting ever more attractive - all compounded by the five stacks being close to the same.

So I suggest a two pronged approach. If hero decides he needs to get lucky, just this one time, to win then call and hope for the donkey train and a lucky run out. That makes Hero competitive with UTGs stack. I see Hero thinks he holds a skill edge over the field - if this remains Hero's point of view then don't do this "pray for luck" plan.

A better strategy. Hero checks intending to fold if a multi-way pot develops. The plan is to let three or four players clash and put hero into the money (or nearly so). Reevaluate if the hand is checked through, but fear a slowed played monster. I could be swayed to switch back to a jam & hope line if the payout structure is top heavy. Hero's T 11K enough to have hopes even vs the big stacks.

Sometimes it is best to duck and cover -=- DrStrange

 

[Frogzilla]

If you feeling conservative, check flop and play brick turns aggressive. You’ll have huge equity advantage over draws that might call you.

I’m calling down any flop bet

 

[upNdown]

In this position before the cards are dealt, I think you’re either a fold or an all in, with a strong preference for folding.
I wouldn’t mind playing a hand with this stack by min-raising in position, but as out of position as you are, it’s a bad move.
UTG+1 should have jammed it all in with any two cards here - you definitely would have folded, and sb and bb probably would have too.
As played, with that big stack acting after you, all you can do is check and wait to fold, I think.

 

[BGinGA]

Preflop:
Fold. QT-suited is pretty, but can easily get one into trouble (top pair with kicker problem if hitting either card, or hitting two pair with bigger hands that beat it, or hitting the non-nut flush), all of which can easily cost you your stack because they are hard to lay down. Being out of position just makes it worse, and a bad investment of 10% of your already-short stack (assuming just calling). If raising, shoving all-in from UTG is your best bet against this crowd. But I fold, and wait for a better spot.

Flop:
Check, and plan to fold to any serious action that develops. It's five handed, two players checked with two yet to act, you have less than a pot-size bet remaining, and both the button and SB are playing smaller stacks than you. And the flop is exactly one that gets hands like yours into trouble -- your two pair is already losing to made hands like a better two pair, a set, or a flopped straight (all well within the ranges of four other hands in play), and there are several draws to hands that beat yours: a better two pair, straights, and the flush..... and all of those draws are also well within the ranges of four other hands who would have called a min-raise pre-flop. Unlikely you will win this hand unless you boat up, and that may not even be enough. I think betting is a mistake.

 

[JStew]

Mistake #2 made. Hero is thinking about all the draws out there and shoves to try to get them to fold. On hindsight a stupid idea as he didn’t even have a pot size bet left and also it is pretty optimistic that one of the other four players in the hand doesn’t already have a made hand.

UTG+1 calls, button calls going all in, SB folds, big blind shoves, and UTG+1 calls. 4-way all in.

UTG+1 has
Button has
BB has
Hero

Flop was Other table stops playing with the excitement of the 4-way all in. Hero calls for a “one-time”, but is disappointed as the turn and river blank.

Thanks for all the great feedback. Although I didn’t realize it when I first posted this, I clearly should have folded pre-flop given my horrible position. This is a leak I will work to improve in future months.

PS. Think I might have implied I have a skill advantage on this group but unfotunately I don’t. I’m a middle of the pack donkey in this group. The one thing I do have going for me is at least I realize it and am trying to learn.

 

[Gobbs]

I'm not a fan of min raises UTG no matter what the hand or situation, but especially with that stack. Given the other players' stacks, I like folding here. If there were three or four stacks much bigger than yours, I'd go with a shove and hope to double or triple up, but that's not the case here. Look for a better spot.

After the flop, it's very unlikely you are top dog with that flop. Check/fold is your best action. It's also a good example of why your two pre-flop options were fold or shove. You don't usually want to be facing three others post-flop with that kind of hand (even though it turns out two were not going anywhere, anyway). You wanted to be out or heads up.

 

[TheRepo]

Min raises UTG can be good with blockers, corrects stack sizes and general passivity on the table, and an overall appreciation of what you're representing. Maybe it's the Scotch talking but I think in the modern context there is too much shove/fold going on. Perhaps from a theoretical view, with too much shove/fold at lower M values, there may be an exploitative option for some very calculated min raise EP sort of stuff going on. Take down the pot representing monsters while simultaneously preserving tourney life. Again, only as a purely exploitative play.

Now I await the purest mathematical opposition to said argument!

Repo

 

[CHP TD]

Hi J

Knowing your M is good. Knowing what to do and when to do it using your M is better. find out what inflection points and zones are.

It sounds like you haven't read the Harrington on holdem right? then completed question book 3?

The books are a good read and It will show u what and when and why.

Gl Sir and crush those tourneys!

 

[upNdown]

When my m doesn’t have me grinning and I get dealt two cards, UTG, I usually hear a pretty loud voice in my head saying “I can’t imagiine what two cards I’d play here.” And the list is short - AA, KK, QQ, AK suited - maybe JJ - every situation is different, but you get the idea. Unless I have a surplus of chips to play cards with, I’m playing tight as hell UTG

 

[BGinGA]

When my m doesn’t have me grinning and I get dealt two cards, UTG, I usually hear a pretty loud voice in my head saying “I can’t imagiine what two cards I’d play here.” And the list is short - AA, KK, QQ, AK suited - maybe JJ - every situation is different, but you get the idea. Unless I have a surplus of chips to play cards with, I’m playing tight as hell UTG

Noted. You playing in the pcf online tourney tonight?

 

[upNdown]

Noted. You playing in the pcf online tourney tonight?

Probably. But I think tonight is plo8.
And those things end up being so short handed so often that position isn’t quite as much of a concern.