Cutting the Deck (2 Viewers)

I'm another vote for cutting the deck. Takes little time and effort.

You guys do understand this thread IS NOT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO CUT THE DECK?

It’s about allowing the person dealing to SHUFFLE AND CUT THE DECK THEMSELVES.

I STRONGLY believe the cut is an important part of a proper shuffle.....which is WAY more of an issue IMO ....as 95% of poker player are horrendous at shuffling.

Several of these comments seem to have missed that. For a refresher as to the situation I was describing.....

I have a group of poker friends whom I’ve played cards with for close to 18 years. We use one deck and the dealer shuffles. At some point early on it started that the dealer would just cut themselves. Right in front of them in perfect view of everyone just as a dealer in a casino would. BUT THE CARDS WERE ALWAYS CUT.
 
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List of things that slow a game down more than a player cutting the deck...
  • Talking
  • Waiting 3 seconds as a player is almost at the table with a refreshed drink
  • Waiting 2 seconds as a player is almost at the table with a refreshed drink
  • Shuffling
  • Using chips instead of an electronic table
  • Balancing tables
  • deciding which game to play next in a "Dealer's Choice" game
  • Laughter
Which further illustrates why using two decks does, in practice, does little if anything to speed up the game...but that’s another thread.....
 
The odds are about the same. Struck by lighting, or encountering a cheat at a home game.

Difference is playing without simple security (like a cut card) is like playing golf in a lightning storm. You are inviting unnecessary risk to save what? 50 cents?


We use “cut cards” and always have.. But in poker theproper term is a “bottom card” or a “shoe” as I mentioned in an earlier post. The cheap flimsy “cut cards” most use today for poker were originally for blackjack and games dealt from a dealers shoe.
 
We use “cut cards” and always have.. But in poker theproper term is a “bottom card” or a “shoe” as I mentioned in an earlier post. The cheap flimsy “cut cards” most use today for poker were originally for blackjack and games dealt from a dealers shoe.
I like the diffrencination. Googling "Poker Bottom Card" brings up cards for 37¢ each (first hit), while "Cut Card" delivers 50¢ cards.

Poker Bottom Card is not a common term, but it is a 13¢ phrase.
 
You guys do understand this thread IS NOT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO CUT THE DECK?

It’s about allowing the person dealing to SHUFFLE AND CUT THE DECK THEMSELVES.

I STRONGLY believe the cut is an important part of a proper shuffle.....which is WAY more of an issue IMO ....as 95% of poker player are horrendous at shuffling.

Several of these comments seem to have missed that. For a refresher as to the situation I was describing.....

I have a group of poker friends whom I’ve played cards with for close to 18 years. We use one deck and the dealer shuffles. At some point early on it started that the dealer would just cut themselves. Right in front of them in perfect view of everyone just as a dealer in a casino would. BUT THE CARDS WERE ALWAYS CUT.

Mrs Zombie and I self cut the deck when playing heads-up. Any other time it would be "sloppy" play. Habits are best formed out of repetition, so playing with friends should use all the same rules and procedures you would expect to find if you were a completely foreign guest in a different game. I would like having a dedicated non-playing dealer even better to simulate casino play, but more home games are self dealt, so I find it best to teach my new players how to deal, even the long distance of the table.

But you do you. From the standpoint that this forum offers a lot of advice to new hosts, I would strongly advise to have another player cut (unless you have a dedicated non-playing dealer).
 
I like the diffrencination. Googling "Poker Bottom Card" brings up cards for 37¢ each (first hit), while "Cut Card" delivers 50¢ cards.

Poker Bottom Card is not a common term, but it is a 13¢ phrase.

This is a sample of the thicker “bottom cards” or “shoes” as they were sold by Gamblers General Store circa 2002-2006 at least. I picked up several of them on a trip to Vegas. It’s not a “$.13” phrase, it was what they were called.

These were used for years at casinos in AC and and Vegas. At the Borgata, around the time they opened and where where I mostly played, I asked the dealer what is was called so I could try to find and buy some. They said it was called a “shoe”.

I posted this link earlier. It is the only source for these now and they are black in both sides. They are twice as thick at the “cut cards” sold for poker now.
https://spinettisgaming.com/products/bottom-card-for-poker
These are $2.50, so according to your calculations it’s at least a $2 phrase ;)

In the early 2000’s the flimsy “cut” cards used today were only available in poker size because that’s what is used for blackjack. Now they cut them in bridge size and I have not seen an old fashioned “shoe” or “bottom card” at a casino in several years. They all seem to have moved to the cheap bridge sized cut cards. Incidentally that is also what I use as I wanted to retire my “bottom” cards since they seem to be very hard to find now.

As for “sloppy” play....I think shitty shuffling is exponentially more “sloppy” and is probably occurring on almost every home game on every hand no mater how you cut the cards..
 

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Also while I’d encourage most games to cut the deck it’s not a “completely standard part of poker” in home games.

I guess it must be the specific home or cultural environment, then.

I grew up in a very large card-playing family (20 blood aunts and uncles, plus their spouses) and cutting the deck after shuffling was part of ANY card game, bar none.

I'm with BG. I've played poker in a lot of homes. I've played spades, hearts, bridge, tysiąc, Barbu, in homes and in school and at work... and with people from all different parts of the world. In all those games, the deck is cut. With all those international players, the deck is cut.

I think that few things are more completely standard in cards or in poker... but I suppose if you grow up playing in a couple of circles which all do the same non-standard thing, it feels like a standard to you.

I have a group of poker friends whom I’ve played cards with for close to 18 years. We use one deck and the dealer shuffles. At some point early on it started that the dealer would just cut themselves. Right in front of them in perfect view of everyone just as a dealer in a casino would. BUT THE CARDS WERE ALWAYS CUT.

Ironically, this is the one game in a casino where the dealer cuts - and it's because it's not a house game. (I.e., it's not played against the house.) Partly for speed/efficiency, but also partly because the players play against each other, the professional dealer cuts and deals. That way, the players can't superstitiously (or suspiciously) blame another player for the order of the cards. They are the only person at the table who is not in the hand. Of course, to point out the obvious: in a self-dealt game, that is not true, and it all goes out the window - if the dealer is dealing themselves cards, they should not cut the deck! (But if you're going to allow it, please, single overhand cut.)
 
Ftr I was getting at - cut by a different person than the dealer and a lot of times as others have brought up, the person whose supposed to cut just says it’s good as is. If you play in game where they always do, great, helps avoid cheaters but plenty out there exist where it’s not always done.
 
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I'm with BG. I've played poker in a lot of homes. I've played spades, hearts, bridge, tysiąc, Barbu, in homes and in school and at work... and with people from all different parts of the world. In all those games, the deck is cut. With all those international players, the deck is cut.
)

Again I ask....Who said the deck shouldn’t be cut?

If you or any of your players are shit shuffling like shown and contrasted to a proper shuffle again in this video, the same person shuffling and cutting the cards should be the least of your worries. I imagine they are as 99% of players shit shuffle....not to mention expose cards routinely
 
Again I ask....Who said the deck shouldn’t be cut?

If you or any of your players are shit shuffling like shown and contrasted to a proper shuffle again in this video, the same person shuffling and cutting the cards should be the least of your worries. I imagine they are as 99% of players shit shuffle....not to mention expose cards routinely
I want to play a game with that guy dealing!
 
Again I ask....Who said the deck shouldn’t be cut?

BG and I are responding to ReallyGoodUsername, who said cutting is not "completely standard:"

Also while I’d encourage most games to cut the deck it’s not a “completely standard part of poker” in home games.

(We both quoted him.)

We use “cut cards” and always have.. But in poker theproper term is a “bottom card” or a “shoe” as I mentioned in an earlier post. The cheap flimsy “cut cards” most use today for poker were originally for blackjack and games dealt from a dealers shoe.

I tried so hard not to get into this... I'm sorry, I have to disagree.

The people who market wares online are not the arbiters of terminology, although they do end up making certain terms mainstream for people who learn them by browsing catalogs.

I was taught (literally, in dealer training school in the late 80's) that the proper term in poker for the card we're talking about is a "cover card." My instructor told us that a lot of gambler in NJ will call them "cut cards" because they don't know any better, and they've all been handed cut cards at blackjack for years, and since we're there to let them have a good time, it's probably best to just ignore it - but it poker, it's a cover card. It's never used to cut. You use your hand to cut, and the procedure for the cut, despite being dead simple, is critically important, and that a gaming inspector watching our deal could get our house fined and our asses fired (and our dealing licenses revoked) if we did it wrong, so we'd better learn it properly.

I have never heard of them being referred to as a "bottom card." The phrase "bottom card" referred to the 52nd card in a deck. This was true in dealing, in gaming, in magic, and in all the literature I saw for all the above (I was an amateur magician in my teens.)

I have never heard of the card being referred to as a "shoe." That phrase was reserved for a case which holds multiple shuffled decks for dealing blackjack, baccarat, and the like.

I have also seen them referred to as "plastic cards." This is, of course, correct and literal! The words "cut card" and "cover card" describe how it's being used.

Ind the standard process for dealing blackjack out of a multi-deck shoe, you actually use both a cut card and a cover card... the same plastic card is used interchangeable for both. To be complete, the two cards play three roles. The process:

1. You offer a plastic card to a player to later perform a cut. (The player to whom a plastic card was dealt, last hand.) This card is now a cut card; the player will later stick it into the stack to cut it.
2. You do the collecting and shuffling of the cards, including >1 round of stacking & shuffling packets into stacks. (House shuffle procedure; it varies.)
3. Before the last pass of the house shuffle, you set a plastic card on the table and shuffle packets of cards onto it. This plastic card is now a cover card.
4. After you've made one tall stack on top of the cover card, you knock the stack over and square it up against the shoe (which has a handy lip near the back to make this easy.) While the stack is on its side, the cover card prevents the bottom card from being exposed.
5. You present the stack, sideways, to the player with the cut card to stick it in there.
6. When you separate the stack at the cut point, each of the two stacks have the bottom card covered by a yellow card. They are now both cover cards!
7. You slide the bottom stack on top, and remove that cover card from the full stack.
8. You take that plastic card and set it at the casino-standard depth as a shuffle indicator. They card has taken a third role! When this card is later dealt, the player who got it will be offered the next cut. But you don't give it to them yet - you put that plastic card under the front lip of the shoe to remind you to stop dealing after this hand.
9. After finishing the last deal, you put all the cards in the discards, empty the shoe, peel off the remaining cover card, and get the last of the cards into the discards.
10. At this point, you toss one of those two plastic cards to the player to whom it was dealt and start again. You can toss either one.

Thinner plastic cards are preferred for cutting (easier to slip in). Some people prefer a heavier card as a dedicated cover card at poker, but that's not a necessity. A heavy cover can be easier to find by feel if it gets mixed into the cards.
 
In the home games I play in around the bay area, most people will have 2 decks in play with whoever dealt the previous hand responsible for shuffling the deck for the hand after the current one. Then they'll hand it to the button and he will cut it and deal. So the dealer doesn't actually shuffle the deck at all. He/she only cuts it and deals it. It makes the game run a lot faster. I'm curious how you guys that say the dealer should never cut it like (or dislike) this arrangement.
 
I want to play a game with that guy dealing!

Today, maybe, before? Not so much!

That's George Joseph, started out magician and turned mechanic in the Detroit area. You did NOT want him dealing to you then.

When he moved to Vegas, he went the magician route. There's nothing better than a former mechanic/magician to be your security/surveillance expert. Today, he'd definitely deal you a solid game, but you don't want to pay his rate.

(Also, I've decided not to get into it, but there are a bunch of things I'd pick apart about that video.)
 
The games I play in always have the button shuffling (when there is a designated dealer) and we play with two decks. Then the designated dealer cuts.
 
In the home games I play in around the bay area, most people will have 2 decks in play with whoever dealt the previous hand responsible for shuffling the deck for the hand after the current one. Then they'll hand it to the button and he will cut it and deal. So the dealer doesn't actually shuffle the deck at all. He/she only cuts it and deals it. It makes the game run a lot faster. I'm curious how you guys that say the dealer should never cut it like (or dislike) this arrangement.

I hate it. If I were on the button and the deck were handed to me uncut, I'd offer to the small blind to cut. Then I'd deal. If the small blind wasn't paying attention, I'd offer it to anyone else at the table who was looking. Happens all the time. But there's no way in hell I'm cutting my own deal.

(Full disclosure: I may be unusually strict about this, but used to also do card tricks for my friends/players, so I kinda have to stay super-strict for them to be willing to play with me!)
 
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Today, maybe, before? Not so much!

That's George Joseph, started out magician and turned mechanic in the Detroit area. You did NOT want him dealing to you then.

When he moved to Vegas, he went the magician route. There's nothing better than a former mechanic/magician to be your security/surveillance expert. Today, he'd definitely deal you a solid game, but you don't want to pay his rate.

(Also, I've decided not to get into it, but there are a bunch of things I'd pick apart about that video.)
He certainly gives a first impression of a really interesting character.
 
Yes, he does.

Funny side story: when in dealer school, there were several cases of other students asking "why do we have to do it this way? It's stupid." and the instructor would say, "because that's the law." "But why?" "Because if you do it different, some people could cheat." "No way."

And then I'd demo the cheating. It was fun. (I still had my chops, back then. Haven't been active with that stuff for over 25 years, now.) Our teacher knew about a bunch of the moves I was using with the chips, but not all the moves with the cards, but that didn't matter - what mattered was this: doing it the "proper" way pretty much made it impossible or profoundly difficult to cheat if the equipment was honest. (With gimmicked equipment, all bets are off.)
 
BG and I are responding to ReallyGoodUsername, who said cutting is not "completely standard:"



(We both quoted him.)



I tried so hard not to get into this... I'm sorry, I have to disagree.

The people who market wares online are not the arbiters of terminology, although they do end up making certain terms mainstream for people who learn them by browsing catalogs.

I was taught (literally, in dealer training school in the late 80's) that the proper term in poker for the card we're talking about is a "cover card." My instructor told us that a lot of gambler in NJ will call them "cut cards" because they don't know any better, and they've all been handed cut cards at blackjack for years, and since we're there to let them have a good time, it's probably best to just ignore it - but it poker, it's a cover card. It's never used to cut. You use your hand to cut, and the procedure for the cut, despite being dead simple, is critically important, and that a gaming inspector watching our deal could get our house fined and our asses fired (and our dealing licenses revoked) if we did it wrong, so we'd better learn it properly.

I have never heard of them being referred to as a "bottom card." The phrase "bottom card" referred to the 52nd card in a deck. This was true in dealing, in gaming, in magic, and in all the literature I saw for all the above (I was an amateur magician in my teens.)

I have never heard of the card being referred to as a "shoe." That phrase was reserved for a case which holds multiple shuffled decks for dealing blackjack, baccarat, and the like.

I have also seen them referred to as "plastic cards." This is, of course, correct and literal! The words "cut card" and "cover card" describe how it's being used.

Ind the standard process for dealing blackjack out of a multi-deck shoe, you actually use both a cut card and a cover card... the same plastic card is used interchangeable for both. To be complete, the two cards play three roles. The process:

1. You offer a plastic card to a player to later perform a cut. (The player to whom a plastic card was dealt, last hand.) This card is now a cut card; the player will later stick it into the stack to cut it.
2. You do the collecting and shuffling of the cards, including >1 round of stacking & shuffling packets into stacks. (House shuffle procedure; it varies.)
3. Before the last pass of the house shuffle, you set a plastic card on the table and shuffle packets of cards onto it. This plastic card is now a cover card.
4. After you've made one tall stack on top of the cover card, you knock the stack over and square it up against the shoe (which has a handy lip near the back to make this easy.) While the stack is on its side, the cover card prevents the bottom card from being exposed.
5. You present the stack, sideways, to the player with the cut card to stick it in there.
6. When you separate the stack at the cut point, each of the two stacks have the bottom card covered by a yellow card. They are now both cover cards!
7. You slide the bottom stack on top, and remove that cover card from the full stack.
8. You take that plastic card and set it at the casino-standard depth as a shuffle indicator. They card has taken a third role! When this card is later dealt, the player who got it will be offered the next cut. But you don't give it to them yet - you put that plastic card under the front lip of the shoe to remind you to stop dealing after this hand.
9. After finishing the last deal, you put all the cards in the discards, empty the shoe, peel off the remaining cover card, and get the last of the cards into the discards.
10. At this point, you toss one of those two plastic cards to the player to whom it was dealt and start again. You can toss either one.

Thinner plastic cards are preferred for cutting (easier to slip in). Some people prefer a heavier card as a dedicated cover card at poker, but that's not a necessity. A heavy cover can be easier to find by feel if it gets mixed into the cards.

I assume this is all related to Blackjack? No offense, but I stopped reading as I’m familiar with how casino blackjack is dealt. However, I’ve never in my life seen a player asked to cut a poker deck.

Also, I had never heard the term “shoe” referred to the bottom, cover, etc card until a dealer at Borgata circa 2003 told me. For some reason I also believe this is was Gamblers General Store called it as my friends and I were able to search and find it by name. My one friend used to pick them up when ever he was in Vegas (which was a lot) and bring them home because the shipping was outrageous.

That’s fine you were taught something different in dealer school but that is what the Borgata dealers called them. I’d be surprised if they just made up on their own. At that time many were very seasoned dealers who moved over from the Taj and other places...according to their tabke talk,
 
@Mental Nomad It's a stretch, twist, and shout to say I think the deck shouldn't be cut. I was pointing out that it doesn't always happen at all games that I've played at. I'm sure other people have seen it here as well (and probably/rightfully cringed) hence, why I said it's a stretch to call it "completely standard". I would call playing with 52 cards to a deck or dealing clockwise "completely standard". If we're arguing over the meaning of the phrase - completely standard, let's just move on.

In the home games I play in around the bay area, most people will have 2 decks in play with whoever dealt the previous hand responsible for shuffling the deck for the hand after the current one. Then they'll hand it to the button and he will cut it and deal. So the dealer doesn't actually shuffle the deck at all. He/she only cuts it and deals it. It makes the game run a lot faster. I'm curious how you guys that say the dealer should never cut it like (or dislike) this arrangement.

This is exactly what I've often seen and at times the dealer will just deal it. Again for clarification I'm not saying it should be done (can't emphasize this enough :D)... just that it is at games I've been to.
 
All these people talking about mechanics and insisting that you can't let the person who shuffles make the cut... both amuses and frustrates me endlessly. You just don't understand.

The mechanic to worry about is not shuffling the deck. The mechanic you worry about is the one dealing. And they don't need a card topped or bottomed before the deck comes to them, because they've likely held back a card previously, have it palmed, and will add it to the top of the deck. You make it really easy by letting them cut for their own deal. If they cover the deck in their hands while squaring it up post-cut, they can easily be putting a palmed card on top. Then they'll deal seconds until it's their card (unless they plan to give it to a confederate.)

That's one way to do it, but I'd be equally concerned about a cheat manipulating the deck itself as manipulating the deal.

I'm in a similar boat with you, in that I know some very simple things from doing card tricks as a kid. (I'm not especially good at it, mostly due to lack of interest.) It's the main reason I want people to cut before my deal in particular. Just don't want there to ever be any room for doubt.

One part of a trick I can do involves surreptitiously getting a card from the bottom to the top of the deck and keeping it there, while I shuffle repeatedly and ask a series of questions. It's not hard, even if you make it a packet of two cards, and three and four cards are doable too. That's enough to rig both starting hands in a heads-up game, from a disinterested novice. I have no doubt I could easily build my way up to larger packets.

At the average home game, it would be easier than doing a card trick because your audience isn't actively trying to figure out your trick. In a two-deck game, for example, you're routinely left to shuffle the deck while everyone pays attention to the hand in progress, so a compromised shuffle wouldn't even need to be well-concealed. If you scoop up discards while the prior hand is ongoing, you can even build up the stack one by one before you have the full deck to handle, and again no one will be paying attention. And even when someone does watch you, bad shuffling is par for the course, so that conspicuous chunk of 16 cards you've preserved over two riffles doesn't raise any flags.
 
@Mental Nomad It's a stretch, twist, and shout to say I think the deck shouldn't be cut. I was pointing out that it doesn't always happen at all games that I've played at. I'm sure other people have seen it here as well (and probably/rightfully cringed) hence, why I said it's a stretch to call it "completely standard". I would call playing with 52 cards to a deck or dealing clockwise "completely standard". If we're arguing over the meaning of the phrase - completely standard, let's just move on.



This is exactly what I've often seen and at times the dealer will just deal it. Again for clarification I'm not saying it should be done (can't emphasize this enough :D)... just that it is at games I've been to.

I’ve noticed these threads get a bit like this regarding these type of topics
 
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It's the main reason I want people to cut before my deal in particular. Just don't want there to ever be any room for doubt.

In a two-deck game, for example, you're routinely left to shuffle the deck while everyone pays attention to the hand in progress, so a compromised shuffle wouldn't even need to be well-concealed. If you scoop up discards while the prior hand is ongoing, you can even build up the stack one by one before you have the full deck to handle, and again no one will be paying attention. And even when someone does watch you, bad shuffling is par for the course, so that conspicuous chunk of 16 cards you've preserved over two riffles doesn't raise any flags.

This is the only realistic concern I’ve had. In my experience it’s usually the new players to the group that are worried and intimidated, not the other way around.

For your second point, it’s just yet another reason two decks are way overrated.
 
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@Mental Nomad It's a stretch, twist, and shout to say I think the deck shouldn't be cut.

That's fair - but I didn't say that at all. I said:

BG and I are responding to ReallyGoodUsername, who said cutting is not "completely standard:"

BG and I feel it's completely standard, and that places where there is no cutting are the exceptions, not the rule.
 
surreptitiously getting a card from the bottom to the top of the deck and keeping it there, while I shuffle repeatedly and ask a series of questions. It's not hard, even if you make it a packet of two cards, and three and four cards are doable too. That's enough to rig both starting hands in a heads-up game, from a disinterested novice.

Yes, but a simple cut ruins that entirely. Hence the need for a simple and fair cut that the other players can watch.
 
I assume this is all related to Blackjack? No offense, but I stopped reading as I’m familiar with how casino blackjack is dealt.

It wasn't about how blackjack is dealt, it was about how blackjack is shuffled and specifically about how the plastic cards are used.

The point: it's because of blackjack that the plastic cards are predominantly known as "cut cards." Although the plastic cards have three purposes for the dealer (cover, cut, and shuffle indicator), they only have one to the player (cut), and that is the name that is sticking.

However, I’ve never in my life seen a player asked to cut a poker deck.

I've seen players asked to cut poker decks thousands of times at hundreds and hundreds of poker games - but not, of course, in a casino or card room where there is a dedicated dealer who does not play.
 
It wasn't about how blackjack is dealt, it was about how blackjack is shuffled and specifically about how the plastic cards are used.

The point: it's because of blackjack that the plastic cards are predominantly known as "cut cards." Although the plastic cards have three purposes for the dealer (cover, cut, and shuffle indicator), they only have one to the player (cut), and that is the name that is sticking.



I've seen players asked to cut poker decks thousands of times at hundreds and hundreds of poker games - but not, of course, in a casino or card room where there is a dedicated dealer who does not play.

Dealt, shuffled...I got that.

I was referring to the casino environment as that was what you were talking about.
 
I could care less about cutting the deck myself but like said above, it's a little different when the person dealing is playing and being in a casino and the dealer does it.
 
I've always offered to cut the deck when I'm shuffling.

Usually I'll cut the deck when offered. Occasionally I'll pass on the cut to try and change it up.
 

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