Correct ruling? how would you handle this situation (1 Viewer)

[p5woody]

Two decks are being used, the board is dealt from the wrong deck and it is not discovered until all cards are mixed, what is the ruling?

Details:
Playing in a Texas Hold'em home tournament last night. Everybody folds to the dealer and he puts in a raise to 200. from the small blind, I look down at AK suited, so I raise it to 500 and the big blind folds. The original raiser (dealer) thinks for like 5 minutes before going all in, I think for a couple of minutes ask for a count and then call, he turns over pocket jacks. Here is where the interesting part comes in. They shuffle behind and the guy that was shuffling behind proceeds to deal out the flop and nobody notices the mistake. The flop comes out J44, giving the original raiser (the correct dealer) a full house and he takes down the pot. They start gathering up the cards and they notice the board was dealt from the wrong deck. Meanwhile the correct deck has been gathered up and cards mixed. There is no way to reconstruct the cards at this point. Only two players in the hand so original chip stacks was easy to determine. What is the correct ruling?

 

[stocky]

Tough spot. I'm not sure of the correct ruling but I would reshuffle the correct deck and redeal flop etc. preflop action should remain as is.

I would love to hear others opinions on this.

 

[catalyzeme]

Roll back the hand and redeal. If everything was gathered back up you can't deal it out again.

I don't really even see any other possibilities.

 

[stocky]

Oops thought it was HU, in that case I would be inclined to rule the hand dead and redeal the whole hand.

 

[courage]

Misdeal.

 

[abby99]

I've seen a board dealt from the wrong deck before, but never with this much action following the incorrect flop. As described, I'd rule it a misdeal, reconstruct the pot and return the bets to each player (including the bb), and play a new hand without moving the button.

 

[jbutler]

I've seen a board dealt from the wrong deck before, but never with this much action following the incorrect flop. As described, I'd rule it a misdeal, reconstruct the pot and return the bets to each player (including the bb), and play a new hand without moving the button.

agreed on all points.

 

[moose]

Since it was all in preflop, I would give the players the cards back, shuffle the deck and deal a new board.

 

[p5woody]

I've seen a board dealt from the wrong deck before, but never with this much action following the incorrect flop. As described, I'd rule it a misdeal, reconstruct the pot and return the bets to each player (including the bb), and play a new hand without moving the button.

This is exactly what we did, I just wasn't sure if this was correct. Interesting side note, these two players ended up finishing 1st and 2nd (We actually chopped it). Amazing how one little snafu changed the whole tournament.

 

[abby99]

I can describe this hand with one word: FUBAR.

 

[Mental Nomad]

By the rules, this is a misdeal, so the hand is dead and the money is returned.

It's tempting to make an exception to the rules by reconstructing the dealt cards and dealing a "fair" flop, but fair doesn't always mean legal. By the rules, the legal action is a misdeal.

FYI, it would be nearly impossible to see who remembers the other pre-flop cards that were folded. What are the odds one of you makes a straight? Or a one-card flush? How many people folded a bad ace or king? Someone could easily have folded Lonely Jack and forgot about it. Reconstructing the original deck is all but impossible. Again you may feel it's "fair" to just reconstruct the two dealt hands that "mattered," but fair or not, the hand was a misdeal according to the rules.

 

[abby99]

For the record, the applicable rule from Robert's Rules of Poker, Home Games, is:

Irregularities
[FONT=Univers (W1)]3.[/FONT][FONT=Univers (W1)] [/FONT][FONT=Univers (W1)]If a card with a different color back appears during a hand, all action is void and all chips in the pot are returned to the respective bettors. If a card with a different color back is discovered in the stub, all action stands.[/FONT]

 

[NiceShot]

For the record, the applicable rule from Robert's Rules of Poker, Home Games, is:

Irregularities
[FONT=Univers (W1)]3.[/FONT][FONT=Univers (W1)] [/FONT][FONT=Univers (W1)]If a card with a different color back appears during a hand, all action is void and all chips in the pot are returned to the respective bettors. If a card with a different color back is discovered in the stub, all action stands.[/FONT]

What is the stub?

 

[BGinGA]

What is the stub?

The card deck stub -- those cards held in the dealer's hand that have not yet been dealt.

 

[links_slayer]

What is the stub?

The cards that are remaining after all cards are dealt.

 

[abby99]

What is the stub?

The stub is the portion of the deck that is (or should be) in the dealer's hand. In other words, the stub contains all the cards that have not yet been dealt, burned, or placed on the table as individual or community cards.

 

[Mental Nomad]

From what I was taught, links_slayer wins for most accurate answer.

The cards in the dealer's hand while the hand is being played is called the "deck."

As soon as the river card is dealt, the remaining cards become the "stub."

In a professionally dealt game, as soon as the river card is dealt, the dealer should drop the stub. Ideally, the dealer can keep the action going and count the stub - that is, count the remaining cards to be sure that the total number of cards is 52. The dealer should count the stub as often as they can manage.

Every now and then, in some games, the dealer needs to count the stub before they're done dealing. If you're dealing 7-stud, and a lot of player stayed in to the turn, you may not have enough cards to deal out the hand and drop the stub - you need at least one card left as a stub. If you won't have a stub, you need to deal common cards, instead. By NJ rules, you can never, ever deal the last card.

 

[BGinGA]

http://www.pokernews.com/pokerterms/stub.htm

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From what I was taught, links_slayer wins for most accurate answer.

The cards in the dealer's hand while the hand is being played is called the "deck."

As soon as the river card is dealt, the remaining cards become the "stub."

In a professionally dealt game, as soon as the river card is dealt, the dealer should drop the stub. Ideally, the dealer can keep the action going and count the stub - that is, count the remaining cards to be sure that the total number of cards is 52. The dealer should count the stub as often as they can manage.

Every now and then, in some games, the dealer needs to count the stub before they're done dealing. If you're dealing 7-stud, and a lot of player stayed in to the turn, you may not have enough cards to deal out the hand and drop the stub - you need at least one card left as a stub. If you won't have a stub, you need to deal common cards, instead. By NJ rules, you can never, ever deal the last card.

Your use of the term above does not match your definition of the term above. If cards in the dealer's hands are the 'deck', and cards after the deal is complete is the 'stub', then it's conflicting to say that "the dealer needs to count the stub before they're done dealing", because it can't be a stub unless they are done dealing. The dealer needs to count the deck before they're done dealing, according to your definition.

With which, by the way, I do not agree.

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In addition to the pokernews definition (link above), here is the term as used and defined by pokerstars:

In draw games, particularly those with multiple draws such as 2-7 Triple Draw and Badugi, it is possible for more cards to be needed than are remaining in the stub (the cards in the deck which have not yet been used). If the original 52-card deck is insufficient for the dealer to distribute the number of cards requested by the active player, the remaining cards in the original stub and all of the cards discarded by players previously (including those discarded by other players on the current drawing round) are shuffled together to make a new stub. Play continues from that point using the new stub. Multiple reshuffles of this nature are possible during a hand, depending on the action.

 

[Mental Nomad]

With which, by the way, I do not agree.

I suspected what I was taught might be a NJ-specific terminology, or even specific to my teacher. This could also be one of those things where the "wrong" term becomes so popular it's used in standard descriptions, and it doesn't really matter, because people understand what is meant. (I.e., it doesn't really matter if you refer to the remaining cards as a stub even before the deal is done, it's clear that you're referring to the packet of cards still in hand.)

Weirdly, though, the rules in NJ are codified as law. They're in the state statutes, as part of the law creating the Casino Control Act, so I can look up the legal definition. Here we go:

http://www.newjersey.gov/casinos/actreg/reg/chapter_47.html
Chapter 47, Rules of the Games
Subchapter 14, Poker

19:47-14.1 Definitions

"Stub" means the remaining portion of the deck after all cards in a round of play have been dealt.

Well, that's that. I remembered it wrong, or my teacher goofed inconsequentially. Every round dealt designates a new stub.

Also, for amusement - if the dealer hasn't counted the stub in the past 15 minutes, they have to stop and count down the whole deck of 52.

Your use of the term above does not match your definition of the term above. If cards in the dealer's hands are the 'deck', and cards after the deal is complete is the 'stub', then it's conflicting to say that "the dealer needs to count the stub before they're done dealing", because it can't be a stub unless they are done dealing.

Not really... you can't 'count the stub' without first counting off the cards remaining to be dealt. So you count those off (don't forget burn cards!), and then you can count what's left in the stub to ensure there is a stub. But still, my definition was wrong.

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Wait, I was wrong about being wrong - I was thinking "round of betting" or a "round of cards" being dealt. But by NJ law, a "round of play" is an entire hand of poker, right up to the last card and designation of the winner.

"Round of play" means, for any game of poker, the process by which cards are dealt, bets are placed and the winner of the pot is determined and paid in accordance with the rules of this subchapter.

So, in NJ, a stub is legally only those cards remaining after all cards have been dealt.

 

[BGinGA]

Wait, I was wrong about being wrong

Is that like stubbing your stubbed toe? :

 

[Mental Nomad]

Is that like stubbing your stubbed toe? :

I can't think of a funny response, so I'll just point out that I actually did gash a toe this morning, so I'm limping, regardless.

 

[BGinGA]

Pretty interesting what pops up when you do a google image search on "toe gash".....

 

[navels]

For the record, the applicable rule from Robert's Rules of Poker, Home Games, is:

Irregularities
If a card with a different color back appears during a hand, all action is void and all chips in the pot are returned to the respective bettors. If a card with a different color back is discovered in the stub, all action stands.[/FONT]

This does not seem to apply after the hand is over, right?

What happened to me last night: we're down to five-handed (3-table home tournament). I'm the big stack (A8o) and get it all in with shorty (A3o) pre-flop. Similar to OP, we are playing with two decks. Dealer has dealt the hole cards from deck A. After the pre-flop action he picks up deck B, deals flop, turn, and river. Shorty makes a wheel and starts collecting chips when dealer realizes his mistake.

At this point we each still have our hole cards and it is easy to reconstruct the pot (because it was a two-way all-in) but I believe the hand is over and the above rule does not apply. However the dealer re-dealt flop/turn/river using the correct deck and I won.

 

[upNdown]

This does not seem to apply after the hand is over, right?

What happened to me last night: we're down to five-handed (3-table home tournament). I'm the big stack (A8o) and get it all in with shorty (A3o) pre-flop. Similar to OP, we are playing with two decks. Dealer has dealt the hole cards from deck A. After the pre-flop action he picks up deck B, deals flop, turn, and river. Shorty makes a wheel and starts collecting chips when dealer realizes his mistake.

At this point we each still have our hole cards and it is easy to reconstruct the pot (because it was a two-way all-in) but I believe the hand is over and the above rule does not apply. However the dealer re-dealt flop/turn/river using the correct deck and I won.[/QUO TE]
Seems to me this is exactly the same thing as the OP, and I wonder if the correct ruling was made. The above rule says "during a hand" but in both cases, the hand was over.
I don't have a rule to back it up, but I'll take a look. My understanding is than once the chips are pushed, baring malfeasance, everything stands.

 

[BGinGA]

After the pre-flop action he picks up deck B, deals flop, turn, and river.

I do not understand why nobody noticed that the flop's burn card back did not match the other cards in play (and those in the muck).

 

[BGinGA]

Shorty makes a wheel and starts collecting chips when dealer realizes his mistake.

It's not Shorty's place to collect chips. Awarding the pot is the function of the dealer, and denotes the end of the hand when he mucks the winning hand after awarding the pot.

If those protocols are properly followed, it's clear when the hand is over, and when it is still in progress (and can still be corrected or ruled void, as applicable rules dictate)..

 

[BGinGA]

Seems to me this is exactly the same thing as the OP, and I wonder if the correct ruling was made. The above rule says "during a hand" but in both cases, the hand was over.
I don't have a rule to back it up, but I'll take a look. My understanding is than once the chips are pushed, baring malfeasance, everything stands.

The rule simply states that the card needs to appear during a hand to warrant a misdeal, not that the card is required to be discovered during the hand -- I think it's an important distinction.

And for that reason, even if the pot were pushed and the winner's hand was mucked prior to noticing the invalid cards that were in play, I would still rule a misdeal. What if it was discovered that the winning hand was from a different deck after it was mucked by the dealer? Clearly should be a misdeal imo.

 

[upNdown]

The rule simply states that the card needs to appear during a hand to warrant a misdeal, not that the card is required to be discovered during the hand -- I think it's an important distinction.

I don't agree with your interpretation. The rule also says "all chips in the pot are returned to respective bettors." But there aren't any chips IN the pot in this situation because it has always been awarded (or claimed, in this situation, which is a better argument why this rule should be enforced, in my opinion.)

 

[upNdown]

Here you go:
5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.
So I was wrong, the awarding of the pot is meaningless, it's the riffle. So it can and should be a misdeal.

 

[navels]

It's not Shorty's place to collect chips. Awarding the pot is the function of the dealer, and denotes the end of the hand when he mucks the winning hand after awarding the pot.

If those protocols are properly followed, it's clear when the hand is over, and when it is still in progress (and can still be corrected or ruled void, as applicable rules dictate)..

Agreed, but this super casual home game ain't going for that level of formality.

Here you go:
5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.
So I was wrong, the awarding of the pot is meaningless, it's the riffle. So it can and should be a misdeal.

Seems should have been a misdeal, then. In either case, just re-dealing flop/turn/river was incorrect. Worked out for me, though