Good tournament players can overcome variance. Bad cash players are consistent losers. But you are right, a mediocre player can do much better playing cash as far as return on investment.
Controversial Chip & Poker Opinions (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Rieguy
- Start date
Yes. But it can take a while, especially in MTTs.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I host mostly MTTs, with occasional cash games. The best player in the group has cashed in 56.9% of the events he's played in. In the cash games, he also does well, averaging a win rate of 80.8% over the amount of his buy-in. He wins far more in tournaments than in cash. It is extremely easy to overcome the variance in tournament poker, and your win rate can easily exceed your cash game winnings within the same group.
When I play poker, cash or tournament, I always budget for a certain amount to lose. It's the first rule of any smart gambler "don't bet more than you can afford to lose".
I have to agree with @BPTDirector though. I'm a mediocre player and I am much better (win rate wise) playing cash than tournaments. I simply prefer tournaments, because they play like a game and thus are more fun (to me). Cash games (again, IMO) are fun like sports betting. There is skill involved, but each game is essentially unrelated to the previous or the next hand/game (sure there is some correlation in what is left in the stack after a hand, but even that doesn't usually matter if playing limit poker).
As I see it, Tournaments are more fun because they are a game with a sudden windfall for doing extremely well. Cash games are for people that like the gambol, particularly a gambol where they have a perceived edge.
I disagree.
I’m talking about fields in the 60-120 runner range. Tournaments that big, you have to get lucky a couple of times just to cash. And catching cold cards or bad beats 10 times in a row can happen.
Good comments!
I don't think most cash players have that same mindset. Yes, I bring a certain amount to a cash game, and yes, that is my max that I'm willing to lose. When that is gone, I leave the game. But I don't expect to lose any of it like I would in a tournament. I expect to play for several hours and cash out with at the worst, a small loss (not close to the total I brought with me) and at best, a healthy profit. Doesn't alway work out that way, but in the long run, I'm a profitable cash player, while nowhere close to a profitable tournament player.
FYI - I'm a completely different player (I hope) than the one you played against in Kansas City in 2022. That was one of my very first baby steps in the development of my poker game. LOL. I think back on those days and just shake my head. I was honestly worried about how much I might lose playing 10c/20c circus and 25c/25c NLHE!
But I had a lot a fun and I learned so much from people like you, your wife, Forrest, Ben and all the others there. What a great experience that was for a poker n00b! I genuinely thank you!
I think this supports why I like cash better than tournament. The best players will do well in both, but I still think average players will do better in cash.
I totally understand your position here. My primary point about budgeting to lose was more the mindset. When playing tournament, I hope to stick around just long enough to hit a hot streak late. Then maybe I can cash. Unless the rebuy amount is relatively small, I'll often only fire one bullet, even if a rebuy/re-entry is available. I just don't have the same level of confidence. I think a lot of people like to play in tournaments "for fun" and consider the entry fee a sunk cost for a few hours of entertainment and any winnings as a windfall.
I don't think most cash players have that same mindset. Yes, I bring a certain amount to a cash game, and yes, that is my max that I'm willing to lose. When that is gone, I leave the game. But I don't expect to lose any of it like I would in a tournament. I expect to play for several hours and cash out with at the worst, a small loss (not close to the total I brought with me) and at best, a healthy profit. Doesn't alway work out that way, but in the long run, I'm a profitable cash player, while nowhere close to a profitable tournament player.
FYI - I'm a completely different player (I hope) than the one you played against in Kansas City in 2022. That was one of my very first baby steps in the development of my poker game. LOL. I think back on those days and just shake my head. I was honestly worried about how much I might lose playing 10c/20c circus and 25c/25c NLHE!
But I had a lot a fun and I learned so much from people like you, your wife, Forrest, Ben and all the others there. What a great experience that was for a poker n00b! I genuinely thank you!
Who doesn't, amirite?
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Bigger tournaments, sure. Variance can really get you there. But who is hosting a 120 player home game? Maybe we need to break it down further. It's no longer
which do you prefer, tournament or cash. It's
- Casino Cash
- Casino Tournament
- Home Game Cash
- Home Game Tournament
Yeah that’s fair. Was this about hosting? I don’t even remember. But yeah, I’m used to playing those bigger tournaments in cardrooms and casinos. I don’t know if I simply haven’t made the right friends or what, but I suspect the home game culture up here in the Boston area is just much more slanted to the cash side - if people are hosting a lot of tournaments, I’m not hearing about them.
Casinos are disgustingly dirty, artificial, predatory places. They are the least desirable places to play poker, which their owners view as an unfortunately required drag on their real business of milking suckers like cows via slot machines. They serve no useful purpose except if they rebrand or fail and release Paulson poker chips to @TheChipRoom
FYP
drdr
3 of a Kind
Yep.
But you're lucky. In Australia failed casinos only have plastic sluggos. The only clay I've come across are illegals from 70s and 80s.
Huskerchipper
3 of a Kind
I work in Marketing at a Casino and understand your take to a degree. I will say we do our best to hire, promote and spend locally. We don't have horns on our foreheads or anything. Well I actually do...but the others don't.
OK, some suggestions (which apply to 98% of casinos I’ve visited):
(1) Clean the chips at least twice a year. Even if it is just a faux TSP rinse in a barrel.
(2) Replace the felts when they get greasy. Which they usually are.
(3) Don’t blast lowest common denominator I Heart Radio-grade music at deafening levels throughout the joint.
(4) Invest resources into poker rooms and host more events there than just $100 Monday night tourneys for the same 30 regs;
(5) Hire dealers and floor managers who know and love the game and get proper, continuous training;
(6) Don’t pull a fortune out of the game to fund lame promotions, and certainly don’t skim heavily from them;
(7) Treat everyone the same; don’t allow regs to misbehave and ignore basic rules the rest of the field has to follow.
(8) Build stuff out of materials other than petroleum, formaldehyde and plastic products.
(9) Offer some non-poisonous food options.
(10) Develop a culture unique to each venue besides flashing lights and canned cornball themes. Not everything has to be frantic hype… Abandon all the conventional industry wisdom and make a place where people can actually relax and want to stay.
I’d keep ranting but I should stop… Bottom line is that most casinos are just an indoor version of your typical County fair, without the cute baby farm animals. I can handle a single 7-hour session if I can go home afterwards, but multiple days? Horrible. Home games are so much more appealing.
Huskerchipper
3 of a Kind
I don’t like red $5s w dominate arc yellow/canary edge spots. Reminds me of…
I don’t like red $5s w dominate arc yellow/canary edge spots. Reminds me of…
Lol what’s wrong with McD’s? My “last meal” is still a medium Big N Tasty combo with a McChicken. Too many good memories from probably the best years of my life.
This might be too hot of a take. I will probably catch some flak. And I still(!) want to place a fourth order with the company in question. But here goes.
CPC has quality control issues.
- Hot stamps rub off extremely quickly.
- One color can have a shorter chip height than the rest. This is within spec, as David confirmed with me that chips can be +/- 3 mils and still be within spec. Since chips are about 130 mills high, that means that if one color is +3 mil and another color is -3 mil from baseline, a barrel can be 120 mils off from the next (nearly a full chip height) and still be within spec. In my case, my $1 chip is nearly a half-chip short per barrel compared to my $5 chips. (Caveat: $1 is my workhorse chip and always seemed a little shorter but I didn't really measure until after about 500 hours of play. This is comparing them to my $5 chips which also see a lot of play. A friend has had his JACK Detroit Paulson set in play for about 2500 hours and his chip heights are not visibly affected, so I'm not sure the 500 hours had much to do with my problem.)
CPC has quality control issues.
- Hot stamps rub off extremely quickly.
- One color can have a shorter chip height than the rest. This is within spec, as David confirmed with me that chips can be +/- 3 mils and still be within spec. Since chips are about 130 mills high, that means that if one color is +3 mil and another color is -3 mil from baseline, a barrel can be 120 mils off from the next (nearly a full chip height) and still be within spec. In my case, my $1 chip is nearly a half-chip short per barrel compared to my $5 chips. (Caveat: $1 is my workhorse chip and always seemed a little shorter but I didn't really measure until after about 500 hours of play. This is comparing them to my $5 chips which also see a lot of play. A friend has had his JACK Detroit Paulson set in play for about 2500 hours and his chip heights are not visibly affected, so I'm not sure the 500 hours had much to do with my problem.)
There’s a lot of things wrong with McDonald’s but there’s nothing wrong with red and yellow!
Huskerchipper
3 of a Kind
I'll bite. The hotstamps are an issue as I immediately noticed it when I oiled my color samples. I was a bit taken back. The height issue imo is just the nature of the beast. As I understand it, CPC has alot of waste in the process of manufacturing. I don't think CPC has high profit margins so guess who is going to pay the extra cost??? I can assure you if it could have been easily fixed David would have done it a long time ago. At some point I would think you have to ask yourself, as an owner, what are acceptable parameters that will put out a high quality product for my customers? I am assuming +/- 3 mil is going to turn out a very acceptable product for 98% of his customers. This is not a secret and most of us go into it understanding that. Would all of us love it to be more uniform? Sure, but I am personally willing to accept it and be thankful that I have an option to create my own personal design on a true clay casino quality poker chip. I witnessed TR King close down, I knew of all the quality control issues with BCC and Paulson gave us all the middle finger. The +/- 3 mil doesn't bother me at all. My .02 cents
I don’t like red $5s w dominate arc yellow/canary edge spots. Reminds me of…
Ditto.
Half the reason I used unconventional colors for my custom THC set was that it was so difficult to find 300+ chips without that ketchup & mustard look.
P.S.: This is also an extra reason to hate the Kansas City Chiefs.
MeridianFC
Flush
I love CPC but this is by far my biggest problem with the product. I have seen this variation once or twice in Paulson but it's extremely rare, so rare it's almost not worth commenting on other than to point out it is technically true.
There's going to be pros and cons with each type of chip out there.
CPC has the thickness irregularities between colors and molds. Very rarely spinners but they do happen.
Paulson NAGB chips even in certain colors came from the factory rather warped, yet they are sold for 4 figures per rack.
Ceramics sometimes have quality control and printing issues.
Plastics even from Abbiatti that are "high end" had QC and printing issues on their latest run.
It all depends on your threshold for imperfections. Buy plastic slugs that are 20 cents a chip if you want flawless chips.
CPC has the thickness irregularities between colors and molds. Very rarely spinners but they do happen.
Paulson NAGB chips even in certain colors came from the factory rather warped, yet they are sold for 4 figures per rack.
Ceramics sometimes have quality control and printing issues.
Plastics even from Abbiatti that are "high end" had QC and printing issues on their latest run.
It all depends on your threshold for imperfections. Buy plastic slugs that are 20 cents a chip if you want flawless chips.
@JMC9389 Ceramics are generally pretty consistent. That's what makes them imperfect- that they are too consistent. A big part of the reason I like clay chips is the imperfection. But I want exactly the imperfections I prefer (edge spots being warped especially) and none of the ones I don't. Who sells the chip that is perfectly flawed in precisely the way I want?!?
This is all fair. Most of us love CPC, and we should. But that’s no reason to gloss over the issues.
The issue I have with ceramics, even the hybrids from Sunfly and probably Tina, is that the printers with time are going to change and improve. The colors from run to run may be slightly different which would make add ons challenging if needed. Alignment and printing quality however is usually good, but YMMV depending on the vendor.
My best advice for anyone buying any ceramics or Tina chips is to buy more than you think you'll need and future proof the set if you want to get long term use out of it. Breakage can and will happen and there's no guarantee an add on will look the same as the original order.
I have 2 large Tina ceramic cards molds sets. I've had them almost 3 years now. i've used 1 set 1 time, 1 set 2 times. I host monthly so that's 36 opportunities to use them. Maybe I'll use one this coming game. I've let someone borrow 1 set twice now, so that set has been used 4 times total. He's not a chipper, but runs a church (men's group) game 2x per year, and they work perfectly for that.
I regret spending my money on those chips.
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