Ceramic No-Mold Spinners, Explanation with video examples (2 Viewers)

[ngmcs8203]

170 may also work (I just haven't tried it) but you should run a trial on a small portion of your chips (like 2 chips) to see there are any issues.

I read through the original thread and it seems like many did it with clays without issue so figured I was ok. So I went ahead and tossed 160 of them into the oven for 30 minutes. First round fixed about 85% of them. Putting the ones that still spun in with the second batch. Have about 100 more in the final batch. Coping them in the freezer makes the process go faster too.

 

[triton]

Coping them in the freezer makes the process go faster too.

I do not use my fridge/freezer for cooling as I want to make the temperature changes as gradual as I can (within reason).

 

[Colquhoun]

I'll be interested to see if these hold their new shape over time.

There's two types of molded plastic, thermosetting and thermoplastic. Compressed clays are thermoplastic and can be re-heated and molded to a new shape. The material tends to be softer, even at cooler temperatures.
Thermo-setting is what I had thought all ceramic chips were. Thermosetting tends to be a much harder plastic, but is resistant to reheating and molding once the original product has been made. Under heat, it never really softens...and is more likely to crack than bend.

Watching closely to see if these remain corrected. Keep us posted!

 

[ngmcs8203]

I'll be interested to see if these hold their new shape over time.

There's two types of molded plastic, thermosetting and thermoplastic. Compressed clays are thermoplastic and can be re-heated and molded to a new shape. The material tends to be softer, even at cooler temperatures.
Thermo-setting is what I had thought all ceramic chips were. Thermosetting tends to be a much harder plastic, but is resistant to reheating and molding once the original product has been made. Under heat, it never really softens...and is more likely to crack than bend.

Watching closely to see if these remain corrected. Keep us posted!

We will see. I do know that if you drop one of these Tina’s off the counter onto a hard floor the edges have a propensity to chip. I have seen a reduction of ‘spinners’. Originally I was just stacking and spinning the stack on a poker table to weed out spinners. If I spin them on a wood surface table I end up with about 50% with very obvious concave sides. I think about 5% are the ones that spin like a top. The rest of that 45% spin or wobble but do stop on their own. I have to imagine that the people that say they get more spinners over time are talking about those. Half of them are pretty close to flat. I think the majority of the ‘fixed’ ones come out of that 45%. This last run will sit in 170 for 35 minutes and cool overnight on the counter.

 

[triton]

I'll be interested to see if these hold their new shape over time.

There's two types of molded plastic, thermosetting and thermoplastic. Compressed clays are thermoplastic and can be re-heated and molded to a new shape. The material tends to be softer, even at cooler temperatures.
Thermo-setting is what I had thought all ceramic chips were. Thermosetting tends to be a much harder plastic, but is resistant to reheating and molding once the original product has been made. Under heat, it never really softens...and is more likely to crack than bend.

Watching closely to see if these remain corrected. Keep us posted!

Agree — microfractures are definitely a possibility but am hoping that they are flexible enough to tolerate what I am doing. There is definitely some spin to these chips after my procedure; just not as much as there once was.

 

[ngmcs8203]

The surface temp of the chips when I pulled them out was around 120.

 

[Nymor]

I did another run and this time put 4 43s at each end of the 39 barrel to see whether that would help provide even pressure. I've still got spinners so I'm not sure it's doing enough to justify the effort? Maybe the worst offenders would benefit?

I also thought that if it works I'd need to do 800 chips so did this run without paper separators to save a chunk of time. There is definitely colour run where dark on one chip is up against light on another.

This pic of one of the 43s shows it clearly ... and they all have it to some extent.

And you can see a bit on this one between 2 &3 on the clock face

So I'm inclined not to do any more - or if I did to absolutely separate each chip with paper or a blank.

 

[triton]

Interesting. The last batch I did was 40 chips and I tested for spin just now. 36 of the 40 are no longer spinning and I do not see any color transfer

 

[ngmcs8203]

Interesting. The last batch I did was 40 chips and I tested for spin just now. 36 of the 40 are no longer spinning and I do not see any color transfer

i just finished my batch of about 450. A few had to get tossed in for a second heat adjustment. I now have 3 remaining that are very much spinners. Not sure if they only had one run in the oven or two but I’ve separated them and will put them in for another 35 minutes at 170f tomorrow. All the rest of my No Mold Tina’s are in great shape.

 

[Nymor]

One thing I did notice a while ago that is relevant I think ...

My chips have different designs on each face so I can make them all the same "way up" or not. When they are the same way up I get no spinners.

I've got a (tournie) game tomorrow and was a bit bored today so decided to put the chips out and put patterns in the edges. Problem was if there are spinners it's quite difficult to get tidy patterns that stay where they are and don't mess up - even a tiny bit. I had to get rid of all the spinners otherwise I'd just be inviting frustration and it's meant to be a fun thing to do.

After stacking up the right counts of the chips I'm using I started the long winded way - spinning each chip and turning it over if it span. Didn't take long of doing this to think there has to be a better way. It then dawned on me why not put the stack all the same "way up" as see it's that gets me a headstart - something in the back of my mind told me I'd seen something with that before. Turns out it got nearly the whole way there as I only had to then swap a few chips around, move to top or switch around, to end with good solid, non spinning stacks, that I can do patterns in.

Lovely


What's this got to do with everything? It tells me, and maybe others already knew, that it's not individual chips that warp but whole barrels all in the same direction. Someone who knows more about the materials science part of this is no doubt better clued up on when this probably happens but I think it's more than likely it's in the production/storage of the blanks than in the printing as that's the only time they'd really subjected to any heat.

It would be interesting to measure a spinner really accurately but I suspect it's caused by a tiny, hundreths of a mm, sag in the middle develops after they come out of the press, or whatever, and are stacked up vertically.

As the chips will keep the same "way up" right through the printing the spin only becomes apparent when the chips finally get the freedom to be which ever way up they want to be. (A barrel of blanks is put in the edge printer, then laid out for face A, turned over for face B and then stacked back up 20s/25s, wrapped, put in a box and put on a boat)

If face A is the bump then faceA/faceA will spin, faceB/faceB won't spin and faceA/faceB will probably be ok. The lack of spinners in hybrid chips is also easily explained.

... told you I was bored

edit: and I also apologise if that was all obvious - I'm all caught up now

 

[Colquhoun]

This is my theory on the cause of ceramic spinners. Best case scenario is the chip has 2 concave faces. BRPro (and likely Sunfly) blanks have concave faces so the centers will never touch. Other ceramics may have a convex face that bulges in the wrong direction, like this:

Now, when one or more of these convex chips ends up in a stack, one of three things happen.
1. They all face the same direction and "spoon" - no spin.
2. The convex chips are arranged so the concave faces touch - no spin
3. two convex faces touch - Spin!

 

[triton]

This is my theory on the cause of ceramic spinners. Best case scenario is the chip has 2 concave faces. BRPro (and likely Sunfly) blanks have concave faces so the centers will never touch. Other ceramics may have a convex face that bulges in the wrong direction, like this:

View attachment 1209531

Now, when one or more of these convex chips ends up in a stack, one of three things happen.
1. They all face the same direction and "spoon" - no spin.
2. The convex chips are arranged so the concave faces touch - no spin
3. two convex faces touch - Spin!

View attachment 1209532

This is consistent with my observations.

 

[Nymor]

This is my theory on the cause of ceramic spinners. Best case scenario is the chip has 2 concave faces. BRPro (and likely Sunfly) blanks have concave faces so the centers will never touch. Other ceramics may have a convex face that bulges in the wrong direction, like this:

View attachment 1209531

Now, when one or more of these convex chips ends up in a stack, one of three things happen.
1. They all face the same direction and "spoon" - no spin.
2. The convex chips are arranged so the concave faces touch - no spin
3. two convex faces touch - Spin!

View attachment 1209532

Yes that's what I was trying to get at - much better explained with pictures

Except I don't think it's the odd convex one getting into a stack - I think the whole stack is affected. Poor processes in the manufacture/storage of the original blanks is my guess.

 

[Franzister]

This is my theory on the cause of ceramic spinners. Best case scenario is the chip has 2 concave faces. BRPro (and likely Sunfly) blanks have concave faces so the centers will never touch. Other ceramics may have a convex face that bulges in the wrong direction, like this:

View attachment 1209531

Now, when one or more of these convex chips ends up in a stack, one of three things happen.
1. They all face the same direction and "spoon" - no spin.
2. The convex chips are arranged so the concave faces touch - no spin
3. two convex faces touch - Spin!

View attachment 1209532

I just tested your hypothesis with a rack of unopened no molds. Fresh out of the plastic I had zero spinners. I then took two chips and flipped them so the opposite faces are touching and 100/100 chips are spinners. My results support your hypothesis. Maybe I will test the remaining 2000 chips but I suspect they will prove the same.

 

[Franzister]

Yes that's what I was trying to get at - much better explained with pictures

Except I don't think it's the odd convex one getting into a stack - I think the whole stack is affected. Poor processes in the manufacture/storage of the original blanks is my guess.

Agreed. I tested this and so far 100% spin.

 

[Franzister]

@SixSeven

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I do not use my fridge/freezer for cooling as I want to make the temperature changes as gradual as I can (within reason).

Sorry if I missed this; I've got the clamps for pressure but how do you prop them up in the oven? Do you let the barrel rest on the pan? I don't want any melting.

Thanks for doing these tests, very helpful.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Sorry if I missed this; I've got the clamps for pressure but how do you prop them up in the oven? Do you let the barrel rest on the pan? I don't want any melting.

Thanks for doing these tests, very helpful.

It’s so low of a temp that i don’t think it is an issue, however I did put a piece of parchment underneath mine and laid them so the clamps hung over the edges on both sides of the metal tray. I still think mine touched the pan.

 

[Franzister]

Sorry if I missed this; I've got the clamps for pressure but how do you prop them up in the oven? Do you let the barrel rest on the pan? I don't want any melting.

Thanks for doing these tests, very helpful.

I tried this and it did not work.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I tried this and it did not work.

Tried what? Gotta break down what you did versus what they did, I'm going to try it for sure.

 

[Colquhoun]

There’s just no reason to make this so complicated. A heating pad gives the perfect temperature, and heats the chips completely through in just a few minutes. Clamp them up gently, and done.

Here’s how I do it:
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/flattening-warped-chips.3903/page-5#post-1344277

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

There’s just no reason to make this so complicated. A heating pad gives the perfect temperature, and heats the chips completely through in just a few minutes. Clamp them up gently, and done.

Here’s how I do it:
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/flattening-warped-chips.3903/page-5#post-1344277

Ayo, this entire forum is about spending hundreds/thousands on toys to gamble with lol, of course we're going to overcomplicate things!
I'll talk to wifey about the heating pad for sure though. Just interested in different methods.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Ayo, this entire forum is about spending hundreds/thousands on toys to gamble with lol, of course we're going to overcomplicate things!
I'll talk to wifey about the heating pad for sure though. Just interested in different methods.

Honestly if I hadn’t already bought the clamps before finding out about the heating pad method I probably would have done it that way.

 

[triton]

It’s so low of a temp that i don’t think it is an issue, however I did put a piece of parchment underneath mine and laid them so the clamps hung over the edges on both sides of the metal tray. I still think mine touched the pan.

Same although I used foil and just rested the chips on top. At 150 you don’t need to worry about ceramics melting, but more sensitive chips (eg CPC) will get too soft for the oven method.

I like @Colquhoun’s method; should also work just fine and works for all chip types

 

[Franzister]

Tried what? Gotta break down what you did versus what they did, I'm going to try it for sure.

I tried clamping the chips and putting them in the oven at 150 for 90min with a natural cooldown. Prior to clamping I stacked the chips such that the concave sides would face each other and the convex sides would face each other. Results were marginal if any. Frankly I could not say there was any improvement. As I mentioned before, with my no molds I have 100% spinners. Meaning all of my chips are shaped as described as @Colquhoun described above- concave on one side and convex on the other.

I think it's worth trying and I am interested to hear about your results.