Tourney Big Blind Ante Structure w/a T5 (1 Viewer)

[FDLmold]

I'm playing around with creating a big blind ante structure with a T5 tourney set. This is my small amount of progress so far:

There is not much in the forum if you search big blind ante. Has anybody created anything like this?

 

[Frogzilla]

Normally the big blind ante is equal to the big blind. Any regular T5 structure will work fine. Maybe start at 10/20 if your chip set allows you to start 2-5k deep, so that the next jumps of 15/30 and 20/40 are pretty natural.

 

[FDLmold]

I just looked up the WSOP ME structure. They do the BB = ante structure. Their orbit costs go
500-800-1000-1300-1500-2000-2500-3000-4000-5000-6000
I like that progression. If I divide by twenty I get
5 10 10
10 15 15
10 20 20
15 25 25
15 30 30
20 40 40
25 50 50
30 60 60
40 80 80
50 100 100
60 120 120
75 150 150 (remove T5)
100 200 200

I can remove the T5 at level 12!

 

[Gobbs]

Seems weird to introduce a BB ante with the smallest denomination on the table. The purpose of it is to “simulate” an actual ante being put in by all players while simplifying it by just making it the size of the BB. So, a BB ante of 5 is simulating a .50 ante. That doesn’t compute well with me.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Seems weird to introduce a BB ante with the smallest denomination on the table. The purpose of it is to “simulate” an actual ante being put in by all players while simplifying it by just making it the size of the BB. So, a BB ante of 5 is simulating a .50 ante. That doesn’t compute well with me.

I see what you're saying, but I look at it this way: With individual antes, if you start with the lowest possible blind level allowed by your chips then you can't have antes from the start. With table antes this restriction is removed, so why not utilize it? Now, if you want to have the first levels ante-free in order to make the start of the tournament friendlier, then fine, skip the ante, but you are doing it by choice, not by necessity as in the old days.

@FDLmold, when I host BBA tournaments (which all my tournaments are nowadays) I just use a normal structure as I would without antes, but calculate the tournament end with the "30 BB rule" instead of the "20 BB rule".

Your progression seems quite slow, which is perfectly fine if you have the time! I wish I had the time!

If you want to remove the T5 earlier you can change level 11 to 50 125 125.

 

[asian bino]

Starting an Ante at Level 1 of tournament? Even the WSOP STS don't do that..... On one hand you have a great slow structure, and then you ALSO have an Ante that starts at level 1....seems odd.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Starting an Ante at Level 1 of tournament? Even the WSOP STS don't do that..... On one hand you have a great slow structure, and then you ALSO have an Ante that starts at level 1....seems odd.

I don't think it's that odd. For example, lets say the structure started like this instead:

L1: 10 15
L2: 10 15 15
L3: 10 20 20
...

Would that have been ok? No ante on level 1, right? Instead it starts

L1: 5 10 10
L2: 10 15 15
L3: 10 20 20
...

I think the overall structure matters more than how the first few deep levels are structured, but that's just me.

 

[Gobbs]

I see what you're saying, but I look at it this way: With individual antes, if you start with the lowest possible blind level allowed by your chips then you can't have antes from the start. With table antes this restriction is removed, so why not utilize it? Now, if you want to have the first levels ante-free in order to make the start of the tournament friendlier, then fine, skip the ante, but you are doing it by choice, not by necessity as in the old days.

Why would you want antes from the start?

Not having antes to start a tournament isn’t to make the tournament friendlier and it’s definitely not out of necessity, even in the oldest of days. We can easily start the blinds at 100/200 with an ante of 25 if we so choose (and I’ve played in tournaments that have done so).

Not starting tournaments with antes, especially shorter stacked tournaments, typically allows for more early play and delays it’s evolution into a shove-fest. In fact, I would argue that if you have limited time to complete a shorter stack tournament, antes are completely unnecessary if you have an adequate blind structure. In fact, eliminating antes might even make the finishing time more predictable.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Why would you want antes from the start?

When starting ~200 BBs deep it's really not that big a deal, and nothing I feel strongly about. Usually the blind level repeats itself when antes are introduced, so having lower blinds with an ante the first level, vs higher blinds without an ante, is IMO a matter of taste. See post 7 for reference.

and it’s definitely not out of necessity

I was referring to this:

if you start with the lowest possible blind level allowed by your chips

so in that context it is a necessity.

We can easily start the blinds at 100/200 with an ante of 25 if we so choose

I know, and I have!
Before BBA was introduced, I found that introducing individual antes after a few levels made the ante problems worse (people forgetting to post & fewer hands per hour) than if I had them from the start! My guess is that if my players got into "ante mode" from the start they were less prone to errors. This is just my experience, I can't back it up with data.

Not having antes to start a tournament isn’t to make the tournament friendlier

Well, by friendlier I kinda meant this:

Not starting tournaments with antes [...] typically allows for more early play

so we're on the same page.

I would argue that...

No. Nope. Not a chance. I am not engaging in an ante argument on PCF. They never end well. In fact, I believe Jimmy Hoffa disappeared shortly after a heated online ante debate.

Now regarding posting the big blind first or the BBA first, I have a very strong opinion that Nope. Not touching that one either.

 

[APatHand]

Save yourself the headache and delays of traditional antes and use the Big Blind ante of an amount equal to big blind.
Some argue that the ante amount should be reduced at the final table as the number of participants decreases, but that would be up to you.

 

[FDLmold]

If I was running a T2000 tourney or something with no BBA at all, I imagine a T3000-5000 with the BBA added in would last a similar amount of time.

There's been a lot of evolution of poker in the last 10-15 years. I will probably never run a tourney, but, I do have tourney sets I use for micro cash, and when I go to sell them, if I can show starting stacks and different possible tourney structures, that would be more appealing to a buyer.

For example, I'm in a mildly tight financial position currently. This is exactly half of my Matsui Horseshoe Tourney set.

I'm more likely to get my "don't want to sell it" price if I have a good sales pitch. If I list them. Which I doubt. But you never know.

 

[FDLmold]

I'm not sure there are in enough T5 in there to do BBA.

 

[Gobbs]

I predict in less than 15 years there will be no Big Blind antes. Instead, people will wake up and finally realize antes are completely unnecessary and, in their place, just create slightly more aggressive structures.

 

[BGinGA]

I predict in less than 15 years there will be no Big Blind antes.

This is already true today, in some places.

Like my house.

 

[Gobbs]

This is already true today, in some places.

Like my house.

You are a trend setter, sir.

 

[Legend5555]

I like antes. I don't like to inventivize people to play tight in tournaments by having no ante. As someone that has done a fair bit of dealing, I also like BB ante as wasting time nearly every hand reminding those one or two people to ante gets VERY annoying. I don't think antes are going to go away in tournaments any time soon.

If you can start at 10/20 that would be good. If not then you could try a 5-5 level with no ante to start. That's what I do with 20k stacks starting at 100-100.

 

[Gobbs]

I don't like to inventivize people to play tight in tournaments by having no ante. As someone that has done a fair bit of dealing, I also like BB ante as wasting time nearly every hand reminding those one or two people to ante gets VERY annoying.

I think that’s where we differ. Some look at a lack of antes as an incentive to play tight. In reality, antes force people to play looser.

With no antes, the good players are going to have to adjust their play appropriately. Sometimes, that will mean to play a little tighter. Other times, that will still mean looser play is appropriate.

With antes, looser play is usually the more appropriate reaction to the table. Some people like that because it increases the action, but I’m a much bigger fan of having to adjust my play to a variety of styles instead of a majority of predominantly looser play. (NOTE: I don’t mean to say adjusting your play is not required in any tournament, but antes do make it easier to adjust sometimes.)

Also, as somebody who frequently deals, I totally agree it is VERY annoying having to remind people to ante. Similarly, I had a bunch of ants in my front yard that were very annoying, too. I thought about replacing all the ants with one big ant, but like antes, I realized they were totally unnecessary and got rid of them.