Tourney Best/Favorite Add-on Structure? (1 Viewer)

[v1pe]

I've run a T10K tourney (L1: 25/50) with re-buy/top-up the last couple of months with pretty good success, but I'm finding that my structure is too deep/slow to drive a re-buy in most cases. Last month we only had one re-buy. I'm sure that's a function of cutting off re-buys after L6 150/300 (1hr 15m into the tourney)...with still 30ish average BB we aren't seeing a lot of all-ins, and my players are mostly nits anyway.

I'm also trying to consider that some of my players are more comfortable with a $10 buy in, and some are plenty comfortable with $20-30. I think a structure with an optional up-front add-on (or two) or at the first break add-on might help accomplish a slightly larger prize pool, and allow players to play with what they are comfortable spending.

So, what's your favorite add-on structure? Alternatively I'm thinking of T5k or T7k starting stacks to help encourage a few more re-buys for those that are comfortable firing multiple bullets. That said, I really don't want to run a turbo or hyper-turbo type tourney.

 

[BGinGA]

some of my players are more comfortable with a $10 buy in, and some are plenty comfortable with $20-30. I think a structure with an optional up-front add-on (or two) or at the first break add-on might help accomplish a slightly larger prize pool, and allow players to play with what they are comfortable spending.

Given that initial assessment of your players, I think this concept is a really bad idea for your crowd..... mostly because the last part of your sentence (bolded by me) will absolutely NOT be true. You will essentially be forcing your $10 crowd to either a) play at a huge disadvantage with smaller stacks, or b) put up more money than they are comfortable doing. Neither is particularly comforting.

A better way to accommodate players at different entry fee levels is to run a multi-tier entry tournament, with different prize pools.

 

[v1pe]

Given that initial assessment of your players, I think this concept is a really bad idea for your crowd..... mostly because the last part of your sentence (bolded by me) will absolutely NOT be true. You will essentially be forcing your $10 crowd to either a) play at a huge disadvantage with smaller stacks, or b) put up more money than they are comfortable doing. Neither is particularly comforting.

A better way to accommodate players at different entry fee levels is to run a multi-tier entry tournament, with different prize pools.

Hmm - yeah I suppose you may be right. Maybe I should just stick with a happy medium and set the buy in for $15, which is what I did last time. Or run a faster structure to encourage more rebuys from players who are more willing to fire multiple bullets.

What's a multi-tier entry tournament look like? I've never even heard of that.

 

[BGinGA]

In your case, players can enter for either $10 or $20. Same stack sizes, regardless of entry. $10 from every entry goes into the main pool, which can be won by anybody. The extra $10 of the $20 entries goes into a secondary pool, which can only be won by the $20 entry players.

 

[Mojo1312]

Trying to get a fuller picture of your tournament.

How many players? Blind Structure? Add-on cost and size?

What is your greatest source of dissatisfaction? The length of the tournament or the size of the prize pool?

Have you consider giving players a knock-out chip?

 

[phaze12]

are you running a rebuy or a re-entry?? 2 different types of tournaments. If your running a rebuy, anyone can add on to their chipstack when they have the starting amount or less. this is the biggest difference.

When I ran a rebuy it was 5K starting stacks. but most would rebuy before the start of the tourney to start with 10k. This might get more money into the prizepool. which is what i think you're after.

 

[v1pe]

Trying to get a fuller picture of your tournament.

How many players? Blind Structure? Add-on cost and size?

What is your greatest source of dissatisfaction? The length of the tournament or the size of the prize pool?

Have you consider giving players a knock-out chip?

18 players max, generally somewhere between 9-14. Blinds start at 25/50, 15 min levels about 33% increase each level. I'm not sure of add-on cost and size, looking for feedback in that regard.

Size of the prize pool is probably what I'm most disappointed with. I think the length overall is okay.

Never thought about adding a knock out chip really... What does that all entail?

are you running a rebuy or a re-entry?? 2 different types of tournaments. If your running a rebuy, anyone can add on to their chipstack when they have the starting amount or less. this is the biggest difference.

When I ran a rebuy it was 5K starting stacks. but most would rebuy before the start of the tourney to start with 10k. This might get more money into the prizepool. which is what i think you're after.

Hmm, I guess a reentry is what I have been running. I've allowed rebuy on bust out, or cap off starting stacks at end of rebuy period. Allowing rebuy at start stack or less sounds interesting.

 

[phaze12]

Be forewarned, re buy tourney can get a little ugly at first. Peps that are new to rebuys sometimes are apprehensive at first. A lot of people don't like them because someone with deep pockets can just keep going all in and rebuy.
So don't be surprised when the questions come.

Now on the positive, a rebuy is great for nits as well as the agro. The nits can do their thing and if they cash can say "hey. I'm only in for 1 buyin." And they will be happy.

But you will have the occasional agro that cashes but is still down $ for the tourney. This happens more than you would think.


So I would ask your players what they think first. And make sure they (and you) understand exactly how a rebuy tourney works.

GL

 

[BGinGA]

If your running a rebuy, anyone can add on to their chipstack when they have the starting amount or less. this is the biggest difference.

That is generally NOT the definition of a re-buy tournament.

 

[phaze12]

That is generally NOT the definition of a re-buy tournament.

Where did I go wrong?

This is how I have had it explained to me by a floor person. If I mislead you I am sorry.

 

[BGinGA]

Where did I go wrong?

anyone can add on to their chipstack when they have the starting amount or less.

5K starting stacks. but most would rebuy before the start of the tourney to start with 10k.

Those are both considered add-ons, not re-buys.

A re-buy is when one entry stack is gone, and replaced by another. An add-on is when additional chips are added to the existing starting stack -- either before the event starts, or when stack size reaches a certain minimum (these are sometimes erroneously referred to as re-buys, see below*), or at a predetermined fixed point in time (generally at the point when re-buys are no longer offered).

A re-entry is different -- the term is generally used in those events with multiple starting days, and players can re-enter on a different starting day (even if their original stack is still in play). A player with multiple entries plays his largest stack starting at day 2 and forfeits all others.


* Some events offer a partial add-on/re-buy (1/2 stack for 1/2 price of the original buy-in, for example), and can offered with or without restrictions (typically based on existing stack size).

 

[Poker Zombie]

First, BG's interpretation of rebuy/add-on is correct. Floor person was wrong. Not really a surprise.

Second... The challenge to rebuy periods is to end them late enough that people have the opportunity to bust out. If your players are not inclined to raise by much (lots of limping preflop with nobody stealing) then you won't see big swings in chipstacks. This why in the early part of my tournaments, I have bigger jumps between levels (41% on average), then after the rebuy period, it slows down a bit (32% jumps on average).

Third... When my group was new (and limped a lot) the bulk of eliminations happened when the blinds to starting stack ratio was 16 BB. Therein lies the challenge. Some players may not want to rebuy for just 16 BB. So now I offer a rebuy gets you 110% of the starting stack. It's not much better, but gets you closer to the 20 BB most people find comfortable to at least play with. It also entices a bigger pot.

We now see the bulk of early KOs when the blinds to starting stack ratio is 25BB as aggression has increased somewhat. The 110% rule still holds well.

Fourth... We do not require a player to be felted to rebuy, but when you rebuy you surrender all the remaining chips you had in play. This prevents the deep pocketed players from having a deep stack right out of the gate. This has worked well for our diverse group, which includes players who have to drive for Uber to get $20, and players whose bankrolls will comfortably be in play at the Derby City Showdown. It also encourages players that are down to a 50% stack at the end of the rebuy period to top off, boosting the prize pool. Our rebuy period also ends after break. This way short stacks have a chance to compare stack sizes. When one tops off, then suddenly the others start topping off.

Peer pressure, it's a wonderful thing when used correctly.

Fifth... The "Robbie" rule. We once had a very aggro player (Robbie). If the pot was right he would jam any two cards. Pop, rebuy, repeat. He once won the tournament and took home less profit than the 3rd place finisher. You might think that this plays well for the nits, but it doesn't. It steals their fun. So we instituted a 1 rebuy rule, aka the Robbie rule. Now you can jam willy-nilly early, but after you have been KO'ed once, you are on the same ground as the Uber driver. After Robbie was no longer playing with the group, I took a vote.

The group decided to retain the rule.

 

[phaze12]

BG is correct. So rebuy/add on tourney is technically what I should have called it. I probably received the "dumb down" version as to not confuse me. As the add on could be a point of confusion.

 

[phaze12]

Just to put this out there. Re buy tourney definition has probable changed. Go to almost any online site or casino enter a "re buy" tournament and the way I explained it is what you will find 95% of the time.

 

[Mojo1312]

Knock-out chips are a separate purchase from a players starting stack. Whoever eliminates a player from the tournament receives that players knock-out chip, which he holds onto until the end of the game. For instance, say you are hosting a 13 player tournament with a $20 buy-in that includes a $4 knock-out chip. You go out in 5th place after eliminating two players from the game and obtaining their knock-out chips. You cash in the two chips for $8.

A few ideas that may help:

Drop the 25/50 blind and start with 25/75.
T10000 (133BB)

Use two decks. (One player shuffles, another player deals)
This allows a greater number of hands to be played during the re-buy period, which may lead to additional buy-ins.

Add-ons are a good way of increasing the prize pool. You could do a 5k add-on, for $5 (or whatever works best) at the end of the re-buy period. $5 is relatively cheap. Players are generally pressured to take an add-on because they don't want to be left at a disadvantage.

What is the current buy-in for your game?

 

[upNdown]

My favorite add-on structure is none. Like BG said above - if you want to increase your prize pool, have either a multi-tier entry or just increase the entry.
As far as re-entry or re-buy or whatever you want to call it, I think that's fine, but I like the idea of limiting it to one. I've run some tournaments and not limited the rebuys, but they weren't abused by all-inners (like Robbie above,) the multiple rebuys were by guys who are so bad at cards they shouldn't be playing. I think the point where the reuy is worth 15 or 20 BB's is a good place to cut it off.

 

[phaze12]

I'm sorry, but isn't the pep like "robbie" the type of player you WANT in a rebuy tourney? Dumps lots of cash with no real ability to play. Yes he may get lucky, but in the long run everyone else will benefit from him.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I'm sorry, but isn't the pep like "robbie" the type of player you WANT in a rebuy tourney? Dumps lots of cash with no real ability to play. Yes he may get lucky, but in the long run everyone else will benefit from him.

The Robbie-type will dump a lot of money in, but he will successfully eliminate a lot of players jamming as a 3:1 or a 4:1 underdog. This makes for big pots that the handful of winners will benefit from, but it will make for a very short night for players only bringing a single rebuy to the table. When those players don't return, your game dies.

If you have a solid core of players that will just destroy a Robbie, then he's a fine addition. But most $10 players aren't solid poker players, and that kind of loose cannon will not benefit the game.

 

[upNdown]

I'm sorry, but isn't the pep like "robbie" the type of player you WANT in a rebuy tourney? Dumps lots of cash with no real ability to play. Yes he may get lucky, but in the long run everyone else will benefit from him.

In a cash game? Sure. In a tournament? No. Not with unlimited rebuys.

 

[v1pe]

Interesting discussion, thanks all for the feedback.

I've always thought the primary difference between re-entry and rebuy was that a re-entry would be just like a late registration, you pay the rake again and get seated randomly, vs a rebuy where you stay seated where you were and just pay the base fee.

Second... The challenge to rebuy periods is to end them late enough that people have the opportunity to bust out. If your players are not inclined to raise by much (lots of limping preflop with nobody stealing) then you won't see big swings in chipstacks. This why in the early part of my tournaments, I have bigger jumps between levels (41% on average), then after the rebuy period, it slows down a bit (32% jumps on average).

Third... When my group was new (and limped a lot) the bulk of eliminations happened when the blinds to starting stack ratio was 16 BB. Therein lies the challenge. Some players may not want to rebuy for just 16 BB. So now I offer a rebuy gets you 110% of the starting stack. It's not much better, but gets you closer to the 20 BB most people find comfortable to at least play with. It also entices a bigger pot.

We now see the bulk of early KOs when the blinds to starting stack ratio is 25BB as aggression has increased somewhat. The 110% rule still holds well.

Fourth... We do not require a player to be felted to rebuy, but when you rebuy you surrender all the remaining chips you had in play. This prevents the deep pocketed players from having a deep stack right out of the gate. This has worked well for our diverse group, which includes players who have to drive for Uber to get $20, and players whose bankrolls will comfortably be in play at the Derby City Showdown. It also encourages players that are down to a 50% stack at the end of the rebuy period to top off, boosting the prize pool. Our rebuy period also ends after break. This way short stacks have a chance to compare stack sizes. When one tops off, then suddenly the others start topping off.

Peer pressure, it's a wonderful thing when used correctly.

Fifth... The "Robbie" rule. We once had a very aggro player (Robbie). If the pot was right he would jam any two cards. Pop, rebuy, repeat. He once won the tournament and took home less profit than the 3rd place finisher. You might think that this plays well for the nits, but it doesn't. It steals their fun. So we instituted a 1 rebuy rule, aka the Robbie rule. Now you can jam willy-nilly early, but after you have been KO'ed once, you are on the same ground as the Uber driver. After Robbie was no longer playing with the group, I took a vote.

The group decided to retain the rule.

#2 & 3 are exactly what happen in my tournament. In my last game the final three were well into 10-15 BB average stack territory before it finished. I have mostly passive players who raise very seldom and limp very often. The 110% rebuy is interesting, I'll think on that. I also like the idea of a more aggressive structure up front.

I've incorporated #4 & 5 into my games already, but when the rebuy period ends and pretty much everyone has close to starting stack (due to small amounts of chips changing hands), there's little incentive to take advantage of it.

Knock-out chips are a separate purchase from a players starting stack. Whoever eliminates a player from the tournament receives that players knock-out chip, which he holds onto until the end of the game. For instance, say you are hosting a 13 player tournament with a $20 buy-in that includes a $4 knock-out chip. You go out in 5th place after eliminating two players from the game and obtaining their knock-out chips. You cash in the two chips for $8.

A few ideas that may help:

Drop the 25/50 blind and start with 25/75.
T10000 (133BB)

Use two decks. (One player shuffles, another player deals)
This allows a greater number of hands to be played during the re-buy period, which may lead to additional buy-ins.

Add-ons are a good way of increasing the prize pool. You could do a 5k add-on, for $5 (or whatever works best) at the end of the re-buy period. $5 is relatively cheap. Players are generally pressured to take an add-on because they don't want to be left at a disadvantage.

What is the current buy-in for your game?

In the past with the previous host, $10 has been typical. Now that I've taken over hosting duties I'm really trying to get a regular game going and raise the stakes a bit. Last month was $15 buy in with a $10 rebuy (for full stack).

I'll definitely consider mixing in KO/Bounties at some point and see what my players think about it. It sounds fun and should encourage action.

Last month I had dedicated dealers (who were also players) and we always play with two decks. Having dealers I think sped the game up considerably.

 

[BGinGA]

I've always thought the primary difference between re-entry and rebuy was that a re-entry would be just like a late registration, you pay the rake again and get seated randomly, vs a rebuy where you stay seated where you were and just pay the base fee.

Correct.