AQ vs. skilled (-ish) LAG

Ben

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Here's a hand I played the other night that's been bugging me. Input on all streets is appreciated, although I'm really interested in the river. WWYD?

Very late in session and 7-handed. Game is 5-on-the-button NLHE (no blinds, button posts $5, SB position is first to act.) We have been playing a 5/10 limit mix all night until very recently, deciding to toss in a couple rounds of no-limit to cap it off. Hero and Villain are both LAGs, and well aware of each other in general, but Villain is definitely LAGgier than Hero and we have not played NLHE together before the past couple of hands. Villain claims this is "his game" and based on this and his play in limit and PLO, Hero expects him to try to absolutely steamroll the table. Villain certainly has some skills but leans a bit overmuch toward the spewtardish end of the spectrum in Hero's opinion. Tries to make fancy plays with monsters or air, definitely overvalues marginal hands (even for a hyper-LAG, for whom marginal hands DO have a lot of added value.)

Villain starts hand with $590, Hero covers.

Hero is button with :ad: :qc:. "Blinds" fold. "UTG" limps for $5. CO (Villain) limps. Hero raises to $20. UTG folds, Villain calls. $45 in pot.

Flop is :ah: :js: :7h: Villain checks. Hero bets $35. Villain calls. ($115 pot)

Turn is :qd: Villain checks. Hero bets $90. Villain calls. ($295 pot)

River is :8h: Villain checks, with slightly more hesitation than the previous two streets. Hero's play? (Effective stacks at this point are $445.)
 

bmichaelhorn

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I check but I'm a nit. I think we're ahead but don't want to make a a tough decision. I think his hesitation means he's either got nothing or he's going to make a play. Either way not a great spot for us to bet.
 

Trihonda

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Is he following the old mantra, call draws and bet made hands? Seems counter to his description of a lagtardish player... My worry is the flush. You've bet all the streets thus far, so id be worried he has made his flush. The C/R scares me. I think I might check behind here. I'm sure others have better advice.
 

jbutler

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you said he checked the river more hesitantly than the other streets. how quickly did he check the flop?
 

Ben

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you said he checked the river more hesitantly than the other streets. how quickly did he check the flop?

Pretty quick, but not insta - a few seconds on flop and turn, a couple more seconds on river.
 

ChaosRock

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I think I'd check behind... I'm all for thin value river bet but not sure what kinda of hands we beat would call a river bet here, maybe AK... Flush got there, KT and T9 got there... Way more likely we are beat than we get called by worse imo...

How's the dynamic of the 5-o-t-b game Ben?
 

DrStrange

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I'd like a better understanding about villain.
Many LAGs I know treat a flush draw like a made hand and bet or check raise accordingly. How does this guy play draws?
Does this guy slow play? Say he flops middle set, is he going to be aggressive like normal or become tricky trappy?

The check/call line here seems curious for a LAG, much less a hyper LAG. Hero has lots of experience with this villain - let's have some of the benefit of Hero's knowledge base. Basically I see villain's line as solidly contradictory to Hero's description and don't know if Hero's read is really wrong or if villain is playing this hand really out of character.

DrStrange
 

Ben

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The check/call line here seems curious for a LAG, much less a hyper LAG. Hero has lots of experience with this villain - let's have some of the benefit of Hero's knowledge base. Basically I see villain's line as solidly contradictory to Hero's description and don't know if Hero's read is really wrong or if villain is playing this hand really out of character.

Negative - this game is irregular, with a rotating cast and format, and I have only played in it a few times. I don't think I've played with this villain prior to this session, which consisted mostly of limit holdem and O8, and villain arrived fairly late. Everything Hero knows, or thinks he knows, is in the OP.

Of note though is that when you are a skilled LAG OOP against another skilled LAG, you can't just be guns-blazing every single hand. There are a number of different types of situations where one might go into check-call mode, and correctly so. Despite the stories they try to tell you, there is not in fact a 4-way all-in preflop every hand when Bergs, Guinness, Courage, and H/Q sit at a table together. ;)
 

Ben

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How's the dynamic of the 5-o-t-b game Ben?

Pretty much exactly the same as every 1/2 game in the South, where there is a $5 button straddle nearly every hand. Just less dead money from fishy players in the BB limp-folding with 74o because "hey, it's only 3 more bucks." :D

I really prefer games without the Mississippi straddle (UTG only FTW!) but unfortunately they are a mythical beast in this neck of the woods.
 

courage

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Like the good doctor, I read the OP with the idea that hero had some history with villain. As played, it's a tough decision but I wouldn't necessarily put a lot of stock in his longer time to check river. Seems like KT would have led or c/r the turn, as would sets, so most likely hands villain stays with are weak flush draws. Without knowing his hero call range, I think I'm inclined to check behind here. A worse 2 pair or AK would call but I think we would have heard from those hands earlier also, which leaves villains range polarized, flush or weak. Tough spot, I can't put villain on many hands, so check behind.
 

MoscowRadio

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I think I would also opt for the check here. As Chris pointed out, Villain's range is pretty polarized here and I expect that with any strong draw he would have raised at some point.
 

DrStrange

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OK - so we don't have a long history with villain but we have a session read of "hyperLAG".

I don't much care for value betting when villains depart from their 'normal' approach because I see their range as polarized. Villain has $445 left. Let's guess Hero's value bet sizing is $200 - $300. Hero is pot committed here, so he loses $445 when losing and sometimes gets paid $250 when villain has a good ace or lesser two pair. Hero needs to be right about the value bet a big chunk of the time since he loses almost twice as much as he wins under this proposition.

I don't care for this deal. So I recommend checking behind.

If Hero feels obligated to bet, bigger is better.

If effective stacks were half what they were, I would be jamming rather than checking.

DrStrange
 

guinness

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I'm only checking due to 3 reasons at this point:

- Very late in session
- Deciding to toss in a couple rounds of no-limit to cap it off
- We have not played NLHE together before the past couple of hands.

It's late, you're presumably up, you have no history, new game... blech just check, drag and store his hand info. He have A-8? :cool:
 

Ben

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I check but I'm a nit.

I think I might check behind here.

I think I'd check behind

Check behind

check behind.

I think I would also opt for the check here.

I recommend checking behind.

blech just check

Well crap, I guess this wasn't as hard as I thought. :eek:

In a vacuum checking here just seems incredibly nitty. I ALMOST did it just because of the feeling I got from the way he checked the river, but then I thought he could easily have seen the scare card and thought about turning some mediocre showdown hand into a bluff and decided against it, or have something like JQ or A8 with which he would need to consider the merits of leading vs. checking.

Hero bets $200 (bet sizing definitely a huge mistake - should have been either bigger or smaller; probably smaller.) Villain jams, Hero snaps due to price, and I wouldn't put it past villain to try some crazy C/R bluff or be getting cute with A8 here. Anybody able to fold to a jam after betting $200 here???

Villain has :th: :3h: Booooo!

Of course I'm kicking myself for not just checking behind as EVERYONE recommended, but I would also be a lot less pissed at myself if I bet $125 and folded to the ship. Probably get more calls from his random Ax hands anyway...

Silver lining: after this hand goes down we decide to add one more round of PLO, in which Hero nearly QUADRUPLES up his remaining $200 in a hand where he flops 10's full on a T44 flop. How does that happen? :cool:
 

DrStrange

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Keep in mind people give special advice in a posted hand that might not be the same as they would give at other times.

No, Hero can not bet fold $200 vs any type of LAG. That is the RIO problem when Hero bets the river - he is offering roughly 2-1 odds about who has what kind of hand.

DrStrange
 

xt!

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i think it is actually a really close one, Ben... it would really depend on in hand reads and dynamics for me to choose between a bet/call, bet/fold, a shove, or a c/behind. ill give you a few rambling thoughts on it below.

i like your bet sizing - with the possible exception of pf. ive never played with that pre-flop structure, so i havent put much thought into it. i probably pretend the blinds are out there and bet the $25 id bet on the button vs 2 limpers in a regular 2-5 game. im a big fan of nearly pot sized bets on the turn to weed out draws, (which you bet) but the q is actually bad for us so ill nit pick on that bet sizing. most fds just picked up a pair or a sd, and we didnt really improve against many made hands. (we just jumped ahead of ak/aj, but they would have already told us they are around on that flop) so i would likely go full pot to charge the max.

my play on the river would be determined by table dynamics and what i think je thinks about my play. if he thinks i push draws and semi bluff heavy, if he is a station, if he thinks i know how to fold to a cr, how lightly he thinks i value bet, how lightly he thinks i expect a call, etc...

taking adjusted bet sizing into account i am discounting all hearts except 9T and KQ, and i expect anyone laggy to raise those pf instead of limp calling, so i'm most likely going to lay on the gas on the river and hope to put Ax or QJ type hands to an ezpensive test.

i would guess that i would have bet 25/35/125/river shove (50%) check (20%) bet 200/call (20%) bet 200/fold (10%)ish.
 
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