Aaaand we're back! Okay. Christmas Holiday was a busy one for me that involved travel and family time, but it's over. It's done and I'm ready to hit it hard! Thanks for your patience. I hope everyone had a good holiday.
Next steps:
1) Model a peg-based (bench dog-based) Apex 1000
2) Render to illustrate the concept
3) Put polls up as to which case(s) we should manufacture first, regarding the following issues: capacity, bench dogs vs integrated Rack Stabilizers
4) Pre-order thread
After that:
1) Create the production model--done well,
not quickly
2) Submit that design for approval to injection molding company. Wait.
3) Revise the model as needed, per the manufacturer--done well,
not quickly--and submit for quote. Wait.
4) Receive quote and set a final price for PCF backers
5) Begin taking pre-orders
If we meet the manufacturer minimum order amount on PCF preorders alone:
6) Begin production: pay injection mold company, order acrylic sheets, order necessary production miscellanea (boxes, packaging materials, acrylic welding compound, router bits, rubber straps, cotton cloth for breaking table, etc., etc., all in bulk.)
IMPORTANT: Tooling will take 50 days to make, per the manufacturer's previous March 2018 quote. Lead time will be 30 days.
In the meantime...
7) Receive acrylic sheets and parts
8) Make lids.
9) Get boxes and labels ready for shipment. Wait.
10) Receive parts and assemble
11) Package
12) Ship
Please understand, gentlemen, that this is a very high-level bird's eye view of the project. Yes, there are things in there that I'm sure I'm leaving out. Yes, there are details to each and every aspect of the above process that will present problems and delays. The road to production is paved with challenges. (Challenges...read "hurdles," not "roadblocks.") It took me well over an hour to read the comments made since I last logged in and to write the above portion. I'm sure it'll be another 2 hours or so before I get finished addressing the comments below.
Please, please, please. Let's try to stay focused, remain positive, and move forward, not backward. I'm going to be commenting less, in order to get this project done. When I get some free time, where I can't be CAD modeling, rendering, revising, communicating with the injection molder or plastic sheet company or the ports, ordering, building, and all the while working at my regular job...I will get on this thread and post. I'll address any
fair concerns, but not at the expense of moving forward, as I expect that some people--call me cynical--will post negative comments just for the sake of being negative or possibly trying to stall or derail this project altogether. Let's be honest. It's an online forum.
We have enough momentum to carry us through. I know it's just a poker chip case. If it doesn't come to fruition...no one's going to die. But, to me, it represents a step forward for what we all come here for: poker gear. We come to PCF because we love that stuff. Custom chips, quality chips, cards, buttons, and, yes, poker chip cases. Let's remember what the goal here is...to bring poker chip cases up to the level of our other toys.
Alright. Onto the comments. I'll
try be brief.
That
may be left-over from the previously failed Kickstarter.
The previously failed KickStarter campaign was for The Black Aurora Modular Poker Cases, which were much more elaborate than the Apex cases.
Unfortunately, I doubt...that 500 cases is a manageable goal.
We don't need 500, necessarily. While it's true that, the more potential orders we get, the easier and cheaper this project will be for everyone (once we set a final price), we don't necessarily need that many to order tooling for just one size/type of case to start. We need momentum. "Traction," for those that prefer a buzz-word. We've already got close to 100 would-be pre-orders, I believe. We take those numbers and a 3D printed prototype to local casinos and smaller multi-casino companies. Hopefully, they close the gap. As for the rest, I may end up going into a bit of debt to finish them out. How much debt...will be up to me, ultimately.
...Mario is counting on there being half-a-million chips, divided into 1000 piece sets...
See above. Also...I'm not counting on just the cold and lonely chips out there that don't have a home. I'm banking on the fact that some are going to want to replace their existing chip cases for something better. If I were on-the-outside-looking-in, I'd stick my poker chip cases on Craigslist and buy some Apexes instead. I'm also banking on the holdouts to order the better product for a similar price when their case needs replacing.
...If the Apex were available, I'd order one...
The Apex won't be available until we get some pre-orders. You're welcome to wait until we go to production, but there's no guarantee you'll get the pre-order PCF price, and, quite frankly, we need all the help we can get to bring them to production at all.
I think Mario's best hope is to get the orders he can from PCF, and start production. It's what an entrepreneur does... it's taking the risk...
This was, is, and continues to be the plan. It DOES NOT mean that I should bear ALL of the risk all alone, if there are some cool folks out there who believe in the project, want to see it succeed, and aren't averse to a little risk. Thank you all!
Get the product out there. Get them out into the public where enthusiasts (us) can comment on their awesomeness. Get a one out to
@Hobbyphilic , so he can do a review on his youtube channel with it's 2600+ subscribers and videos that have been watched 33,000 times.
I'm aware of Hobbyphilic. I'm a subscriber myself. When we have a production model in hand, I would gladly send him one to review, if he's willing.
I don't pretend to know the cost of machining the bases or what kind of capitol Mario has to support the project. I do know that he has a good concept for the case, but needs a better plan of execution.
Any constructive suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
There is not much of a reason not to do piecemeal production if the cases are produced one at a time rather than in a massed produced automated system. If a prototype has already been made, then small batch production should be possible.
Protoyping is done by 3D printing. The production Apexes will be made via injection molding. 3D printing is not suitable for production. Injection molding requires tooling, expertise, and is very expensive. The advantage is, once the expensive and slow pre-production process is over, there's no faster means of production and it will keep the cost-per-unit as low as it can possibly be.
...Just speaking for myself, a slightly more expensive case is not a barrier to purchase. I do have a pain threshold as does every other buyer.
We're trying to keep it as affordable as possible. I sincerely hope that we can offer every version of Apex case at a lower price than any of the other "standard" birdcages out there--and I truly believe we can, based upon my experience--but this remains to be seen.
I encourage
@Mario Garza to take the project to the next obvious step. You have potential customers ready to pay for a product that appears ready to make and sell...
It's almost ready to make. You guys and your help have been instrumental.
...There will be time later to offer options and polish the product line. Not now...
It has to be good enough to not disappoint you guys, for this first run. PCF is the reason this project has the momentum it's experiencing now, and it's also one of the most influential forces in our market. Poor reviews could kill this version and future versions. Also, tooling is insanely expensive to iterate through. If we get it wrong, it's thousands of dollars wasted. Patience is key, but we're also mindful of the detriments of analysis paralysis.
PS be careful about realistic shipping costs. You will go broke on this item alone if you don't treat it seriously. This is 100% right. It's the
biggest hurdle for startups. Read some KickStarter horror stories. Many a successful KickStarter creator has felt the wrath of his backers because he wasn't diligent enough in this area. We have to be very, very careful in all aspects of this project in order to avoid the many pitfalls, especially the shipping one.
Great points here. I would love to see this path taken. The ”risk free” approach is really just shifting risk to the buyer. Great way to dampen sales. If you believe in the product go make it! I think I answered this above. It's easy to say and it's easy to watch on Shark Tank. But not every good idea gets made. Not every entrepreneur has good ideas, and not every good idea has a real entrepreneur behind it. I would submit...that many a brilliant idea has fallen by the wayside or taken decades to come to fruition because someone didn't have the drive, the risk tolerance, or the capital to make it happen. I have the drive. I have the risk tolerance. The capital is what I need your help with, at least to some extent.
I strongly suggest doing a poll, maybe first on chip count then on acessorizing the base...
If the top is going to still be brittle acrylic then these will still be non traveling display cases IMO... The top is going to be acrylic, but .25" acrylic or thicker--whatever ends up having the best cost-benefit ratio. Can't argue that acrylic isn't bulletproof, but the extra thickness holds up much better and looks a lot nicer, especially around the welded joints/edges.
I truly believe and 800 ct is the sweet spot here...... for me... Having loaded, handled, and carried all four sizes (400, 600, 800, 1000) in the Black Aurora prototypes, 800 really is the sweet spot, but it's really a matter of opinion/need. You know as well as I do, that some guys have single chip sets in the thousands, so it looks more and more like 1000 is the way to go to start. I think, maybe, we should separate this into multiple polls each time we're ready to order more tooling. For example: Poll 1 - which first? 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200. (I expect 1000.) Then, later: Poll 2 - ok, which now? 400, 600, 800, 1200 What do you think?
I’d be interested in one or two with the card cases installed in them. (600-800 carrier) But after reading, that seems like it would be down the road a bit... Seems that way. See above response, in particular. Hopefully, you're comfortable with pre-ordering a 1000, once we set a price, and selling that one to buy a 600 or 800. We gotta start somewhere.
Thanks for keeping this thing going over the holiday, guys. Time to get to work on the bench dog version!
EDIT: Apologies. I meant to address the previous, possibly outdated prices. As I said before, the success of this thread took me by surprise, a bit. The website needs to be updated. I will get to it as soon as possible. Understand that those prices were for a certain amount of units, a target goal for the time and the form that the project took on at that time.
All of what follows is a vastly oversimplified example. Please treat is as such:
It all comes down to amortization. Let's say the total cost, including tooling for base and handle, minimum order quantities (MOQ), freight, packaging, etc., is going to cost $10,000. Let's say we get 100 PCF preorders. That breaks down to $100 that we would need to charge for each case--again, oversimplified, as we're not accounting for APG capital that will be invested and various other factors.
If we got 200 pre-orders at the same cost, that would bring the cost per case down to $50 each.
300 pre-orders and you'd each get an Apex for $33.
The $65 flat rate with domestic shipping included and the $80 international price were the rates for that time and the goal that I set. Again, those prices may be the same once we work everything out for this run. They may be less. I'll let you know as soon as I do.
That said, we'll need to determine a final price for you guys AND a goal for how many more pre-orders from other sources we'll need at that same price. This all fluctuates. It's all adjustable.
Using the above example again, let's say we get the same 100 pre-orders from PCF members. Do we want to shoot for another 100 at, say, a rate of $50 each? Or do we want to go for 1000 (900 more) at a rate of $10 each?
One thing is sure: The price will go up after the pre-order. Please, get in early. Even if you resell them yourselves, get in there, order a bunch. Order some for friends and family. Call your people, text, DM, PM them. The biggest and most important part of APG's profit on this first run...will be the tooling.
