Anybody ever have this happen? (1 Viewer)

AWenger said:
OP explained the other guy showed his hand, (after the board cards were prematurely collected by the dealer) so everyone knows what the hole cards were. (Assuming OP showed QQ as well).
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I did, I showed after he did. There were people at the table way more upset about it than I was.

Right before I showed my cards he said “you’ve got the Queen don’t you?” I said yes & he said thought so, then as I was turning over my cards, I said 2 of them.
 
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TheDuke said:
That's wrong. They do matter. Especially under unusual circumstances where an error prevented showdown. Corrective action should be taken when possible.

The integrity of the game matters in situations like this. And any and all info available should be used to protect the integrity of the game.

Just chopping the pot when you have evidence would be super obtuse of the floor.

I'd be wary of playing if they just decided to shrug their shoulders and chop the pot as the crappy dealer decided.
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If this had happened in a friendly home game, 100% the guy with QQ should scoop the pot. I'd say 99.99999999999% of the time, if the hand had played out without the mistake, then QQ wins anyway. But I think the real problem here is that a casino can't rule based on feelings, or what should be right, or speculation based on what probably would have happened. Because the hand didn't get to finish, there is no real way of knowing what definitely would have happened.

What if the river was an Ace? I'm willing to bet that at least one time in history someone has folded a monster set because they thought their opponent had a set of aces. So theoretically we can't know who would have won this hand.
 
JD378 said:
I’m dealt pocket queens, one guy bets $25 pre flop, I call & everyone else folds. The flop comes Q96 rainbow, he bets $25 again & I call. The turn is a 4, he continues with a $25 bet. I look down to get chips to call & I hear everyone saying WHOA WHAT ARE YOU DOING?? I look up & he’s turned over the cards in play & is mixing them up with the mucked cards & the deck. The dealer tells us we’ll just have to chop the pot. The other guy shows AK suited.
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JD378 said:
No, I’m still new to poker & am learning what the process is when something like that happens. There were people at the table more upset than I was, the guy sitting beside me said “that’s total bullshit” & racked up his chips & left.
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You don't have to get angry or anything, but you 100% should be calling the floor. You also should not release your hand until there is a ruling. That's pretty much the proof you have an interest in the pot.

upNdown said:
Wait, do you floor-callers think anything different would have happened?

I’m not opposed to calling the floor, but it can only be done to bring the dealer’s incompetence/collision to their attention. I don’t think there’s any rule that would justify the floor doing anything but chopping, under these circumstances.
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Seriously? The floor can impound the pot and make a ruling. If video is at their disposal they could do that. Everyone at the table is going to tell the floor hero had 3 queens and we know the villain didn't table anything that can beat that. The floor is obliged to award the pot to the rightful winner when possible. It's not 100% that they will fix it, but I would guess the ruling will change most of the time.

This mistake isn't unfixable like a burn-and-turn. There are remedies, even though I get the point it's no sure thing the floor will escalate the situation. Maybe the floor will just pay hero off? (I've seen that done in an incorrect BB situation.)
 
WTF, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading these accounts. These sound like literal nightmares and dreams that I would have. Just total suspension of belief and disregard for the actual rules.

I'd report this to the manager of the room and advise that I'm absolutely never playing there again and that I'm going to tell my friends to do the same.
 
JustinInMN said:
Okay, then.

But I did list a number of things the floor could do to change the outcome, no guarantee they will, but this mistake can't just be made and forgotten with this resolution.
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The idea that the floor might just pay the hero off is fine with me. And I think maybe the best solution. But I wouldn't expect it.
 
upNdown said:
The idea that the floor might just pay the hero off is fine with me. And I think maybe the best solution. But I wouldn't expect it.
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The one time I saw this resolution was a much lower stake situation. 8/16 limit game, new player just sits down, posts 4 chips ($2 chips), orders a drink, doesn't realize he's been dealt in, ordering a drink. Dealer scoops cards and chips when action is on him. Dude realizes this after action on the flop starts.

Ruling is player didn't protect his hand, but floor decided to refund the $8 from the cage. It did seem weird dealer wouldn't at least prompt the big blind when he's seated.

Paying off $100 is a different scale obviously, but in perspective, that's probably less than one hours worth of rake.
 
Pinesol13 said:
Anyone want to talk about how OP never raised.....?

That's why I never slow play my hands, just in case the dealer accidentally lights the table on fire and I lose all my money. Gotta get the hands over fast.
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Yes I slow played it, I was counting out raising chips when the commotion happened. Every time I would bet or raise people would fold so I was trying to extract what I could then try to get him to fold before the river in case he had pocket A or K.
 
Yep, complain as high up as you can, and tell them if you are not satisfied, you will refer it to the Florida gaming control board. Hell, I would refer it to them anyway, no matter what the casino does. Keep note of the table you were at and the exact time. The casino has to keep surveillance. If what you say is true, the casino is quite fucked.
 
I am very surprised you didn't ask to speak to the poker room supervisor, at the very least, regardless of the info you heard after. I would have immediately called the boss over when that happened at the table.
 
TomC727 said:
I am very surprised you didn't ask to speak to the poker room supervisor, at the very least, regardless of the info you heard after. I would have immediately called the boss over when that happened at the table.
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Honestly I’m still new to poker & learning the ins and outs. The only thing I’ve ever seen anyone call the boss over for was time limits or they couldn’t get drink service fast enough lol. I’m not upset about it, I’m just considering it part of the learning process. I threw it out on here to get thoughts on it & what I could’ve or should’ve done. I’ll know what to do next time something weird happens.
 
JD378 said:
Honestly I’m still new to poker & learning the ins and outs. The only thing I’ve ever seen anyone call the boss over for was time limits or they couldn’t get drink service fast enough lol. I’m not upset about it, I’m just considering it part of the learning process. I threw it out on here to get thoughts on it & what I could’ve or should’ve done. I’ll know what to do next time something weird happens.
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Good attitude. That’s how you learn.
 
JD378 said:
I’m not upset about it, I’m just considering it part of the learning process. I threw it out on here to get thoughts on it & what I could’ve or should’ve done. I’ll know what to do next time something weird happens.
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You definitely got thrown a tough one for someone just learning. But the floor is there to protect the game and you should feel able to call them if you have a question about decisions, particularly about awarding a pot. For lack of a better term, they are there to be the umpire, to arbitrate. You won't get every call obviously, but at least they will hear things out and make the best decision they can.

Hopefully after this thread, you realizing this is what you should ask going forward in this spot.
 
AWenger said:
I've played thousands of hands, and this has never happened. And it should never happen. It is a big deal.
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I've played thousands of hands too, and not only have I seen dealers screw up in a similar way, I've done it myself in a home game. Sometimes your brain just goes on vacation. It happens to everyone.

That said, I'm 100% behind reporting this to management. If it's an uncommon mistake, no big deal. But if the rumors are true and he's doing stuff like this on the regular, he needs to be either retrained or fired.
 
My take on the ruling: Because of a dealer error, it is impossible for the hand to continue - the remainder of the deck has been mixed with the muck, making it impossible to correctly deal the river. The hand is therefore over. Because the hand has ended with two live players, both live players are entitled to an equal share of the pot. Thus, chop the pot.

As floor, apologize for the dealer error and comp the heck out of both players.

In a home game, I'd make the same ruling. It doesn't matter what the likely outcome was; it doesn't even matter if one player had the absolute nuts and the other player was a guaranteed loser no matter what was dealt on the river. What would have, could have, or might have happened on the river is irrelevant; what matters is what did happen, which is that two players were still live when the hand ended. Neither one is entitled to the pot until the other one is dead or one of them shows a better hand at the showdown.

And while yes, any rule can be overturned in the best interest of a fair game, I don't see a particularly strong case for that here.

IMHO. I'm not a TD or floor or anything, although I've read the rules a few times.
 
CrazyEddie said:
My take on the ruling: Because of a dealer error, it is impossible for the hand to continue - the remainder of the deck has been mixed with the muck, making it impossible to correctly deal the river. The hand is therefore over. Because the hand has ended with two live players, both live players are entitled to an equal share of the pot. Thus, chop the pot.

As floor, apologize for the dealer error and comp the heck out of both players.
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If the floor is making this ruling, I think they should be doubling the pot to make both players whole.

I mean I can see your point, with a street of action yet, just because one player has top set doesn't necessarily means he's going to showdown and winning. Not something I considered in my earlier reply.

But still just because the stub is dropped and mixed, doesn't mean the floor isn't without a remedy to continue the hand. Even if you can't find the "correct" river according to "sacred-order-of-the-cards," it's within the floor's pervue to make the best stub possible, and in fairness, if both players are still holding their hands, all cards in the stub are unseen by each of them, so shuffling a new stub to burn an turn a river if necessary maintains all randomness.
 
JustinInMN said:
If the floor is making this ruling, I think they should be doubling the pot to make both players whole.

I mean I can see your point, with a street of action yet, just because one player has top set doesn't necessarily means he's going to showdown and winning. Not something I considered in my earlier reply.
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Chopping the pot does make both players whole. Each player gives up his claim to his money as soon as he bets it, and has no further claim to it until he tables the winning hand at the showdown or all other hands are killed - other than the shared claim to the pot that all live players have pending the eventual allocation to a winner, which in this case didn't happen.

The house cannot add money to the pot; that would compromise the integrity of the game. The house can only fulfill its obligation to ensure that the pot is allocated among the players according to the rules of the game.

The house can give any player they wish compensation for doing a poor job of running the game (since that is what the players have agreed to pay them for), but that has to be done outside the context of the game itself. Hence, comps, rather than just throwing money on the table.

IMHO. Based on the fundamental ideas at work in a game of poker, much of which boils down to "whose money is this?" and "according to whom?"

JustinInMN said:
But still just because the stub is dropped and mixed, doesn't mean the floor isn't without a remedy to continue the hand. Even if you can't find the "correct" river according to "sacred-order-of-the-cards," it's within the floor's pervue to make the best stub possible, and in fairness, if both players are still holding their hands, all cards in the stub are unseen by each of them, so shuffling a new stub to burn an turn a river if necessary maintains all randomness.
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I agree with you about the order of the stub not being sacred. I have greater concerns about shuffling cards that have been in play and seen by players back into the stub, even if they haven't been seen by the remaining live players. Still, it's not unprecedented - there are some mixed games where, if the deck is going to run out, discards and folded hands can be reshuffled (not sure if this ever happens in casinos though, maybe this is a practice in home games only?). So I guess I reluctantly agree with you that it would have been not unreasonable for the floor to decide the stub could be made good and to continue dealing the hand.

I think it's also not unreasonable for them to rule as I suggested, though.
 
This is just crazy I myself have played lived poker for years and never encountered such thing before, clearly the dealer need some wake up call and i will not go this casino ever around if they keep pulling out this shit
 
JD378 said:
The dealer & player (let’s call him player A) were involved in another controversial hand at another table earlier. The pot was a little over $100, both players check the river & player B turns over his hand to reveal the nuts. The dealer grabs his cards, flips them, puts them in the pile & pushed the chips to player A. Player A never flipped his cards & when player B asked what he was doing, the dealer and player A said he mucked his hand. Player B called the floor but I don’t know what the outcome was.
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No one is addressing this? That's blatant cheating. Was the player Mike Postle and the dealer Justin Kuraitis by any chance?
 
Whenever something this outlandish occurs it’s an obvious floor call. That being said...this type of mistake by the same dealer THREE times is seemingly unbelievable. Collusion would be the first thing that springs to my mind.
 
JScott said:
No one is addressing this? That's blatant cheating. Was the player Mike Postle and the dealer Justin Kuraitis by any chance?
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I didn’t address it, I was just passing through. I travel for work & am usually in a different state every night. The chances of me playing there again within a year is slim. I’m still fairly new to poker & learning the in’s & out’s of what to do, that’s why I posted it just to see how I should have handled it. I wasn’t sure what I could call the floor over for, the only thing I’ve seen floor called for was someone taking too much time. No, it wasn’t Postle, this was on the opposite coast.
 
Have we named the casino yet? Please let us add this to the avoid list
 
JD378 said:
I didn’t address it, I was just passing through. I travel for work & am usually in a different state every night. The chances of me playing there again within a year is slim. I’m still fairly new to poker & learning the in’s & out’s of what to do, that’s why I posted it just to see how I should have handled it. I wasn’t sure what I could call the floor over for, the only thing I’ve seen floor called for was someone taking too much time. No, it wasn’t Postle, this was on the opposite coast.
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One thing I learned since my return to live poker last year....that you should take away from this as well:

ADVOCATE FOR YOURSELF. Nobody else will. If you feel something is out of whack, stop and ask for a ruling.
 

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