Cash Game All-In ruling (1 Viewer)

[Ronoh]

So... say it's .25/.50 with you and Villain having $200 stacks. You open to $3 with AA, V makes it $10, you repop to $25 and V bumps it to $60 you are stuck calling? That just doesn't make sense

 

[WedgeRock]

Would never fly for @detroitdad who would be obligated to bet "pot, motherfucker."

 

[detroitdad]

Would never fly for @detroitdad who would be obligated to bet "pot, motherfucker."

Only if @MatB was the villain.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I use, and fully disclose, that we use WSOP rules in my games. People don't always agree with the rules, but it makes life easy.

Per rule #69:
"69. Declarations: Cards speak to determine the winner. Verbal declarations of hand value are not binding at showdown..."

Here's a copy if you want to use them.

 

[Mental Nomad]

So... say it's .25/.50 with you and Villain having $200 stacks. You open to $3 with AA, V makes it $10, you repop to $25 and V bumps it to $60 you are stuck calling? That just doesn't make sense

With that action, it would be heads-up.
If it's heads-up, you can raise.

 

[BGinGA]

Only if the betting round started heads-up.

 

[Ronoh]

With that action, it would be heads-up.
If it's heads-up, you can raise.

What Dave said

Only if the betting round started heads-up.

But to go another route, same .25/.50 game and all parties are sitting on $200.

V1 opens for $3
You raise to $10
V2 makes it $25
V1 makes it $60

You are now forced to only call.

Or even worse...
You open UTG for $3
V1 makes it $6
V2 makes it $10
V3 on the button makes it $20

Now you can only call for 10% of your stack and out of position against three other players with AA?

I see plenty of downside with very little if any upside to capping the number of raises in a PL/NL game.

 

[Mental Nomad]

Only if the betting round started heads-up.

No, it applies as soon as the hand becomes heads-up, unless the raises have already been capped.

Or even worse...
You open UTG for $3
V1 makes it $6
V2 makes it $10
V3 on the button makes it $20

Now you can only call for 10% of your stack and out of position against three other players with AA?

That's correct. V3 may not know what a wise defensive raise they made.

Seriously, though, this just doesn't happen at my micro games. Never seen it. But you know what I have seen?

A. Call.
B. $2.
C. $4.
A. Call.
B. $6.
C. $8 - sorry, raises were capped. Already three.

Yes, at a 25 NL game. And I'm glad for the cap on raises, to put an end to it so the game can go on.

 

[Gobbs]

We play this rule at our NLHE micro game, as well. It has value.

It's still No-Limit because the bets have no upper bound, but we're controlling how many times a tiny bump can go back and forth.

If this rule is necessary in a NL or PL game to limit the number of small raises, perhaps you should switch to a limit game. It seems your players may be more suited for that.

Also, typically, as others have said, the betting round needs to start heads up for there to be no cap on the number of bets.

 

[moose]

They are doing it because they are having fun. If they want to play bad why do you have to be the fun police? It's a cash game. There is no clock. Find something important to get irritated about.

Bottom line is it affects the game play. If I am on the button with suited connectors or a small pocket pair and there has been 3 raises already then I min raise every time in your game to cap the betting and guarantee I see the flop for that price. If I can do that with no fear of someone behind me being permitted to get in a big raise then it 100% changes the game play and is a dumb rule. It is totally unfair to any player putting in one of the first 3 raises to not have control of the betting when it gets back to him and be forced to only call.

 

[inca911]

Good points on the possible gamesmanship loophole. I hadn't thought of that, so the final version that was printed went with this:

• Please act in turn, as Folding, Checking, or Betting out of turn can affect the other players in the hand. 4 bet max for Limit (i.e., Bet—Raise—ReRaise—Cap) unless players are heads-up prior to the beginning of a betting round, in which case the number of bets is uncapped. No betting cap for Pot Limit or No Limit.

 

[detroitdad]

They are doing it because they are having fun. If they want to play bad why do you have to be the fun police? It's a cash game. There is no clock. Find something important to get irritated about.

Bottom line is it affects the game play. If I am on the button with suited connectors or a small pocket pair and there has been 3 raises already then I min raise every time in your game to cap the betting and guarantee I see the flop for that price. If I can do that with no fear of someone behind me being permitted to get in a big raise then it 100% changes the game play and is a dumb rule. It is totally unfair to any player putting in one of the first 3 raises to not have control of the betting when it gets back to him and be forced to only call.

Well said sir on all accounts

 

[MatB]

Just glad we finally found out what 'NL' means in NLHE.

 

[upNdown]

They are doing it because they are having fun. If they want to play bad why do you have to be the fun police? It's a cash game. There is no clock. Find something important to get irritated about.

I hear you and I'd like to agree with you 100%, but the truth is those ticky tacky min raises, one after another, tilt me as much as anything. Maybe I need to take up meditation or something.

 

[BGinGA]

those ticky tacky min raises, one after another, tilt me as much as anything.

Duly noted.

 

[upNdown]

Duly noted.

You know there's a guy who plays with us online who routinely minraises into ANY pot. I don't understand it. I don't think he does either.

 

[codeman00]

This is what is posted at my house, which covers the top 20 common items and refers to RROP for the remainder. Might be useful.

Thanks for posting this!

 

[Mental Nomad]

If this rule is necessary in a NL or PL game to limit the number of small raises, perhaps you should switch to a limit game. It seems your players may be more suited for that.

LOL at you having anything resembling a clue as to what our game is like, or what the players are suited for...

Most nights, the 4-raise rule doesn't come into play at all, and you wouldn't even know it existed.

There's a strong argument to be made that if your table is putting in a fifth raise with any sort of frequency when multi-way, then the players must be crap at NL poker - they're either slowplaying every goddamn hand and immediately raising back, or just wildly raising and bluffing and gambooling.

 

[Steve Birrer]

This is what is posted at my house, which covers the top 20 common items and refers to RROP for the remainder. Might be useful.

1. This game is for fun, not about money. Only play with what you can afford to lose.
   
2. All chips must be purchased from the house. The rebuy is capped at the initial buy-in, or half the big stack in play. Amounts less than a dollar are rounded down at cash-out.
   
3. In cash games, you may not remove any portion of your buy-in or winnings from the table.
   
4. Higher denomination chips must be easily viewable by everyone at the table (i.e., in front / on top).
   
5. Protect your hand at all times (e.g., use a card protector). This includes not folding your hand until the dealer awards the pot to a specific player at showdown.
   
6. One player to a hand. No sharing live or folded hands, and don’t dig in the muck. Refrain from comments on a hand in play. You may discuss a hand only if you are heads-up with only one player.
   
7. Don’t splash the pot. Players should keep bets in front of them until the end of action for that round of betting. Change will be made at the end of action, then chips will be pushed into the pot.
   
8. For split pots, players should confirm payouts from the dealer before chips are taken from any side pots or main pot. Put chips in the pot, then do the split. Avoid doing splitting math in your head.
   
9. If you throw a single chip into the pot without first announcing a raise, then you have called. Change should be made at the end of the action for any round of betting.
   
10. Please act in turn, as Folding, Checking, or Betting out of turn can affect the other players in the hand. 4 bet max (i.e., Bet—Raise—ReRaise—Cap) unless players are heads-up prior to the beginning of a betting round, in which case the number of bets is uncapped.
    
11. Verbal bets are binding, and no string betting. Any verbal bet starting with “I see/call your bet, and XXX” is a call. If you want to raise, start with “Raise”. A single forward motion of chips in the pot is binding. Cut your chips before moving a stack toward the pot, else you are betting the stack.
    
12. Out-of-turn action is binding, unless a player sitting before that action changes it with a bet or raise. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered (e.g., did not notice a raise, or mis-heard a raise amount). The player may withdraw the wager and reconsider the action, provided that no one else has subsequently acted.
    
13. Cards speak. The pot will be awarded to the best shown hand, even if a player misreads the hand.
    
14. If you show one person your cards, you must show all at end of play. This includes shown folds.
    
15. Shuffle behind the button. Someone who didn’t shuffle the deck must always cut the deck with a single hand. Keep all cards on the table, and in view of all players at all times. If you notice a damaged or unusual card, please call the house for replacement.
    
16. Don’t pre-deal hands, as the burn cards protect the players. Don’t rearrange cards or announce possible hands. Keep the Flop, Turn, and River in order, so players can reconstruct the hand.
    
17. The clock may be called on any player who has taken more than 2 minutes to make a decision. The host will give the player an additional 2 minutes to announce/make a decision, else their hand is folded. Please avoid slow play. Repeated delaying of the game is not allowed.
    
18. If the house provides food/drink, throwing in a few bucks to help is appreciated. There is no rake.
    
19. No smoking inside, take it outside and use a can for an ashtray. Keep it legal.
    
20. If any situation outside of these limited rules arises, Robert’s Rules of Poker will be used to make a decision. A copy is kept on site, and house interpretations / decisions / exceptions that are made to preserve the best interests of the game are final. If the house is involved in a dispute, a non-partisan party will be chosen to make a ruling (ideally announced in advance).

Please respect the players, the house, and the game. Failure to do so or to follow these rules will result in your ejection and exclusion from future events.

So as a follow up. I copied this and made some very minor tweaks then had Staples print it out for me on 18x24 heavy paper. Actually hung it on the wall in my man cave. Had a two table game Saturday night and was surprised to see most guys at least taking a look at it when they came in and 100% said it was a great idea even though we haven't had any major issues in the past. So thanks again for posting. Turned out to be very helpful!

 

[Mental Nomad]

So as a follow up. I copied this and made some very minor tweaks then had Staples print it out for me on 18x24 heavy paper. Actually hung it on the wall in my man cave. Had a two table game Saturday night and was surprised to see most guys at least taking a look at it when they came in and 100% said it was a great idea even though we haven't had any major issues in the past. So thanks again for posting. Turned out to be very helpful!

Always a good plan! (y) :thumbsup:

 

[codeman00]

So as a follow up. I copied this and made some very minor tweaks then had Staples print it out for me on 18x24 heavy paper. Actually hung it on the wall in my man cave. Had a two table game Saturday night and was surprised to see most guys at least taking a look at it when they came in and 100% said it was a great idea even though we haven't had any major issues in the past. So thanks again for posting. Turned out to be very helpful!

Would you mind posting the tweaks? (your version)? I was thinking of tweaking it myself.

 

[Ronoh]

LOL at you having anything resembling a clue as to what our game is like, or what the players are suited for...

Most nights, the 4-raise rule doesn't come into play at all, and you wouldn't even know it existed.

You're right in that we don't know what your game is like, we only know what you've written which suggests the rule was put in place because it's a regular thing.

If it comes into play so rarely the rule makes even less sense... why have a non-standard rule to "move the game along" which addresses a situation that hardly ever happens?

No one is asking you to change the rules of your game, we're just poker players saying "I don't get it".

 

[Steve Birrer]

Would you mind posting the tweaks? (your version)? I was thinking of tweaking it myself.

Birrer’s Card Room Rules

1. This game is for fun, not about money. Only play with what you can afford to lose. However, its more fun when you follow the rules!
2. All chips must be purchased from the house. Amounts less than a dollar are rounded down at cash-out.
3. In cash games, you may not remove any portion of your buy-in or winnings from the table.
4. Higher denomination chips must be easily viewable by everyone at the table (i.e., in front / on top).
5. Protect your hand at all times (e.g., use a card protector). This includes not folding your hand until the dealer awards the pot to a specific player at showdown.
6. One player to a hand. No sharing live or folded hands, and don’t dig in the muck. Refrain from comments on a hand in play. You may discuss a hand only if you are heads-up with only one player.
7. Don’t splash the pot. Players should keep bets in front of them until the end of action for that round of betting. Change will be made at the end of action, then chips will be pushed into the pot.
8. For split pots, players should confirm payouts from the dealer before chips are taken from any side pots or main pot. Put chips in the pot, then do the split. Avoid doing splitting math in your head.
9. If you throw a single chip into the pot without first announcing a raise, then you have called. Change should be made at the end of the action for any round of betting.
10. Please act in turn, as Folding, Checking, or Betting out of turn can affect the other players in the hand. For limit games 4 bet max (i.e., Bet—Raise—ReRaise—Cap) unless players are heads-up prior to the beginning of a betting round, in which case the number of bets is uncapped.
11. Verbal bets are binding, and no string betting. Any verbal bet starting with “I see/call your bet, and XXX” is a call. If you want to raise, start with “Raise”. A single forward motion of chips in the pot is binding. Cut your chips before moving a stack toward the pot, else you are betting the stack.
12. Out-of-turn action is binding, unless a player sitting before that action changes it with a bet or raise. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered (e.g., did not notice a raise, or mis-heard a raise amount). The player may withdraw the wager and reconsider the action, provided that no one else has subsequently acted.
13. Cards speak. The pot will be awarded to the best shown hand, even if a player misreads the hand.
14. If you show one person your cards, you must show all at end of play. This includes shown folds.
15. Shuffle behind the button. Someone who didn’t shuffle the deck must always cut the deck with a single hand. Keep all cards on the table, and in view of all players at all times. If you notice a damaged or unusual card, please call the house for replacement.
16. Don’t pre-deal hands, as the burn cards protect the players. Don’t rearrange cards or announce possible hands. Keep the Flop, Turn, and River in order, so players can reconstruct the hand.
17. The clock may be called on any player who has taken more than 2 minutes to make a decision. The host will give the player an additional 2 minutes to announce/make a decision, else their hand is folded. Please avoid slow play. Repeated delaying of the game is not allowed.
18. If the house provides food/drink, throwing in a few bucks to help is appreciated. There is no rake.
19. No smoking inside, take it outside.
20. If any situation outside of these limited rules arises, Robert’s Rules of Poker will be used to make a decision. A copy is kept on site, and house interpretations / decisions / exceptions that are made to preserve the best interests of the game are final. If the house is involved in a dispute, a non-partisan party will be chosen to make a ruling (ideally announced in advance).

Please respect the players, the house, and the game. Failure to do so or to follow these rules will result in your ejection and exclusion from future events.

 

[Gobbs]

LOL at you having anything resembling a clue as to what our game is like, or what the players are suited for...

Most nights, the 4-raise rule doesn't come into play at all, and you wouldn't even know it existed.

There's a strong argument to be made that if your table is putting in a fifth raise with any sort of frequency when multi-way, then the players must be crap at NL poker - they're either slowplaying every goddamn hand and immediately raising back, or just wildly raising and bluffing and gambooling.

I wasn't trying to be offensive, and you are right about me not knowing what your game is like, but my experience has been that when hands often see several small raises, it indicates a large number of players who are not comfortable with a no limit or pot limit format. I would have thought that specifically creating a rule that prevents this type of action meant preventing it was a bigger concern for you than the significant impact the rule has on game play because it happened with frequency.

However, as you have stated, the rule is not in place because of the frequency to which it occurred. Therefore, I guess the question is, why was the rule necessary? if your players are comfortable with a NL or PL format, it seems the unintended consequences of such a rule would greatly outweigh the benefits. As was mentioned in an earlier post, I simply don't get it.

Either way, good luck with your game and many happy (and hopefully productive) tournaments to you.

 

[Mental Nomad]

I would have thought that specifically creating a rule that prevents this type of action meant preventing it was a bigger concern for you than the significant impact the rule has on game play because it happened with frequency.

No harm done, no hard feeling.

But in response, we didn't "specifically create a rule..."... and it isn't significant because, again, it doesn't happen with meaningful frequency.

I've hosted poker games since the early 90's, when Limit was the game. This was before NL really took off.

Later, we began playing NL. The cap on raises wasn't so much "created" as "preserved" to avoid confusion, and it provided some measure of psychological comfort to some people who were leery of getting started playing NL.

Truth be told, I can't think of a single occasion when the rule affected the normal play of poker at NL - ever. It's usually a couple of people donking around saying "two more!" "Two more!" "Two more!" ... sometimes in good humor, sometimes abetted by alcohol... the rules ends up putting a limit on the nonsense. I can't think of a time it came into play on a legitimate hand.

Once or twice someone put in the last raise intentionally saying something like, "capping this shit." But, by and large, as you note, the fact that they can do that means that we've got some newbs in the game as well as some regulars who made some bad plays. In other words, the fact that it CAN happen is a symptom that some bad poker happened... but the rule didn't cause that bad poker, being invoked is a symptom of those bad plays.

Most important, as I've said, the cap isn't hit at all on most nights. Go ahead and start watching for when you see a legitimate hand go to a fifth raise in a multi-way pot, then come back to me about how often the rule might matter and hurt the game.

Out of curiosity, are you aware of why the rule really was created, in the first place, in Limit games? Because it has nothing to do with Limit / No-Limit betting structures.

 

[courage]

Older player? Prolly dementia.

 

[CherryTree]

For thinking he had no outs with K-K-7-7, Player 1 deserves to lose his $$. However, I'm pretty sure that the casino would rule in favor of him.

 

[Taghkanic]

I could see an argument for P2 that dealer running the river (7) was rabbit-hunting, since the hands were mucked/dead before that, so it wouldn’t be a case of letting the KK play. Either way, that's an icky situation.