Cash Game All-In ruling (1 Viewer)

dkersey

dkersey

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Had something interesting happen at a monthly game last Friday.

Background: Home game, 1/2 NLHE, lots of aggressive play, lots of re-buys, within an hour, we had 3 rebuys at 200, by end of night usually about 4k-5k in play. The players are serious to real good, no grinders or pros, just some guys like to throw around some money on Friday nights.

About an hour and half into play...this hand. Player 1 (P1) bets $17 preflop, 2 callers. Flop is 7 9 T, P1 bets $50, P2 calls, P3 folds. Turn is another 7, P1 (who is big stack) bets All-In, P2 snap calls. P2 shows 8 J (for a straight), P1 shows most of the table KK and says something to the effect of "you got me, I can't win". All 4 cards are placed face up on table, and P1 grabs all 4 cards and proceeds to turn the cards over as if the hand is over. Meanwhile, the dealer deals the river card, a 7, giving P1 a Boat.

P1, who previously said, "I can't win", claimed the pot. P2 protested that P1 mucked his cards, and he should get the pot (which BTW, was probably around 450). Much arguing ensued. There is no arguing that he did/didn't have KK. The question is really - did verbally conceding the hand constitute a mucking of cards.

We left it up to the host, who ruled, cards speak since the KK was not in question and the better hand won (P1). P2 had already rebought 1 and was in 400, politely said good night and walked out. Ironically, P1 who argued that he should win the pot, admitted that in a casino, they would have been considered mucked and he would have lost the pot.

Discuss!
 
The cards speak once the hands are open. A casino wouldn't require the cards to be shown, but once they are they can't be "mucked" This is also the reason casinos always deal out all 5 cards even when somebody is "drawing dead".

This is if both hands were actually tabled face up, as opposed to just showing cards to other players then mucking them face down...
 
dkersey said:
All 4 cards are placed face up on table, and P1 grabs all 4 cards and proceeds to turn the cards over as if the hand is over.
Click to expand...
To be clear, when you say "all 4 cards" you're referring to the two players' hands (not the flop and the turn?)
If P1's cards were face up on the table and then he "mucked" all four, I don't think you can say he mucked his cards.
 
Cards speak. He did not muck them. Both of the players hands were upright on the table and the dealer then dealt the next card which indeed made his full house.

Just because he said he can't win doesn't stop the dealer from finishing dealing the hand. He didn't surrender, pick up his cards face down and then throw them in the muck.

Player 1 has no right to pick up players 2 cards anyway.

Player 2 just didn't know that the last card could be a 7 or a K to win. Or maybe he knew but knew the odds were against him.

Lesson learned for both players. The hand isn't officially over until the river is dealt.
 
Kyle said:
Cards speak. He did not muck them. Both of the players hands were upright on the table and the dealer then dealt the next card which indeed made his full house.

Just because he said he can't win doesn't stop the dealer from finishing dealing the hand. He didn't surrender, pick up his cards face down and then throw them in the muck.

Player 1 has no right to pick up players 2 cards anyway.

Player 2 just didn't know that the last card could be a 7 or a K to win. Or maybe he knew but knew the odds were against him.

Lesson learned for both players. The hand isn't officially over until the river is dealt.
Click to expand...

^that^
and BTW, a player can not "muck" his hand, he can only fold in the manner stated above. Only the dealer can muck cards.
 
Nope. The right player won. Why player 1 would proceed to grab the cards is beyond me. :confused: The host should have called a brief pause to the tourney and make it very clear to everyone that the DEALER is in charge for the action at the table. That he alone takes the pot in, cuts chopped pots, gives change, rakes cards ect...
 
P1 should not have been handling the muck or the face up cards. That's the dealer's job. In a self -dealt game it's the dealer's job (though sometimes they need an assist).

Verbally conceding however, is not a surrender. cards getting mucked after showdown does not kill them either. If it were a casino, they would have gone to the video footage. @Mrs Poker Zombie had a similar (but different) situation in Las Vegas, and they called up the video footage.

In short...
  • P1 was wrong about his odds of winning
  • P1 was wrong to handle the cards and muck
  • P1 was wrong about how a casino would rule.
Word of advice: don't listen to P1
 
Kyle said:
Cards speak. He did not muck them. Both of the players hands were upright on the table and the dealer then dealt the next card which indeed made his full house.

Just because he said he can't win doesn't stop the dealer from finishing dealing the hand. He didn't surrender, pick up his cards face down and then throw them in the muck.

Player 1 has no right to pick up players 2 cards anyway.

Player 2 just didn't know that the last card could be a 7 or a K to win. Or maybe he knew but knew the odds were against him.

Lesson learned for both players. The hand isn't officially over until the river is dealt.
Click to expand...
This.
 
That's why its also good to have some rules printed out that everyone can reference if there is an issue, like Robert's rules.
 
Quicksilver-75 said:
Nope. The right player won. Why player 1 would proceed to grab the cards is beyond me. :confused: The host should have called a brief pause to the tourney and make it very clear to everyone that the DEALER is in charge for the action at the table. That he alone takes the pot in, cuts chopped pots, gives change, rakes cards ect...
Click to expand...
But this is a cash game, and the OP never says that the cards were turned up (says kings were showed to some people, then picked up with the other hand and mucked) If the cards aren't revealed, and the player throws the cards away, I call that a win for P2
 
upNdown said:
To be clear, when you say "all 4 cards" you're referring to the two players' hands (not the flop and the turn?)
If P1's cards were face up on the table and then he "mucked" all four, I don't think you can say he mucked his cards.
Click to expand...

Yes, the 4 cards were the players cards, not the board cards.
 
I agree with majority here. If P1 had not shown his KK, and started fishing through all the discards I would feel different.

Others at the table disagreed even after the host ruling saying it allowed an angle shoot to grab cards after a implied fold such as pushing your cards away from without saying the word "fold"...then if need be, grab the cards in front of you and claim you never folded.

Btw, P1 is a very good poker player, and admitted his mistake(s).
 
i think the lesson here is Get a set of rules. Learn them Use them. Put them on the wall why? it makes all of these issues Null and Void.

mine are on the wall and I've put them on my Home game face book group.

I call the rules the most unread document ever. But

Most importantly - You - The Host doesn't have to make a ruling. no one can argue with you.

They can argue with the rules but that is just laughable...

I cant believe how many times ive said this, Trust me people - Do this and so much of you hosting becomes easier!

Anyway see you next time i have this rant - And there will be a next time... Ugh... :(
 
So just found this stie and joined. Interesting thread and I think the hand ruling was correct. But I do have a question. I have been hosting a home game for quite a time now and any issues we have had have been pretty minor. However, I am going to have a two table next week with a number of players who have not played here before. I always go over the rules prior to the first hand being dealt but a printed set of rules is really a good idea.

Anybody got a link to a good set of rules for home tourneys?
 
Robert's Rules of Poker or the TDA rules should be all you need.

We've been using a modified version of RROP for 14 seasons.
 
This is what is posted at my house, which covers the top 20 common items and refers to RROP for the remainder. Might be useful.
  1. This game is for fun, not about money. Only play with what you can afford to lose.
  2. All chips must be purchased from the house. The rebuy is capped at the initial buy-in, or half the big stack in play. Amounts less than a dollar are rounded down at cash-out.
  3. In cash games, you may not remove any portion of your buy-in or winnings from the table.
  4. Higher denomination chips must be easily viewable by everyone at the table (i.e., in front / on top).
  5. Protect your hand at all times (e.g., use a card protector). This includes not folding your hand until the dealer awards the pot to a specific player at showdown.
  6. One player to a hand. No sharing live or folded hands, and don’t dig in the muck. Refrain from comments on a hand in play. You may discuss a hand only if you are heads-up with only one player.
  7. Don’t splash the pot. Players should keep bets in front of them until the end of action for that round of betting. Change will be made at the end of action, then chips will be pushed into the pot.
  8. For split pots, players should confirm payouts from the dealer before chips are taken from any side pots or main pot. Put chips in the pot, then do the split. Avoid doing splitting math in your head.
  9. If you throw a single chip into the pot without first announcing a raise, then you have called. Change should be made at the end of the action for any round of betting.
  10. Please act in turn, as Folding, Checking, or Betting out of turn can affect the other players in the hand. 4 bet max (i.e., Bet—Raise—ReRaise—Cap) unless players are heads-up prior to the beginning of a betting round, in which case the number of bets is uncapped.
  11. Verbal bets are binding, and no string betting. Any verbal bet starting with “I see/call your bet, and XXX” is a call. If you want to raise, start with “Raise”. A single forward motion of chips in the pot is binding. Cut your chips before moving a stack toward the pot, else you are betting the stack.
  12. Out-of-turn action is binding, unless a player sitting before that action changes it with a bet or raise. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered (e.g., did not notice a raise, or mis-heard a raise amount). The player may withdraw the wager and reconsider the action, provided that no one else has subsequently acted.
  13. Cards speak. The pot will be awarded to the best shown hand, even if a player misreads the hand.
  14. If you show one person your cards, you must show all at end of play. This includes shown folds.
  15. Shuffle behind the button. Someone who didn’t shuffle the deck must always cut the deck with a single hand. Keep all cards on the table, and in view of all players at all times. If you notice a damaged or unusual card, please call the house for replacement.
  16. Don’t pre-deal hands, as the burn cards protect the players. Don’t rearrange cards or announce possible hands. Keep the Flop, Turn, and River in order, so players can reconstruct the hand.
  17. The clock may be called on any player who has taken more than 2 minutes to make a decision. The host will give the player an additional 2 minutes to announce/make a decision, else their hand is folded. Please avoid slow play. Repeated delaying of the game is not allowed.
  18. If the house provides food/drink, throwing in a few bucks to help is appreciated. There is no rake.
  19. No smoking inside, take it outside and use a can for an ashtray. Keep it legal.
  20. If any situation outside of these limited rules arises, Robert’s Rules of Poker will be used to make a decision. A copy is kept on site, and house interpretations / decisions / exceptions that are made to preserve the best interests of the game are final. If the house is involved in a dispute, a non-partisan party will be chosen to make a ruling (ideally announced in advance).
Please respect the players, the house, and the game. Failure to do so or to follow these rules will result in your ejection and exclusion from future events.
 
Last edited:
#5 "...This includes not folding your hand..."

Players fold, dealers muck.

And FYI, @Steve Birrer, if you plan to adopt these rules, #10 is a limit rule. Not applicable unless you are playing limit.

Might also be worthwhile to discuss the dead button rule, or whatever option you choose to implement when a blind busts out.
 
CHP TD said:
Get a set of rules. Learn them Use them. Put them on the wall why? it makes all of these issues Null and Void
Click to expand...
In my experience the second point is the most important. Not that a formal parliamentarian is needed but when someone raises an issue it really sucks to spend 10 minutes looking "Oh I know there's a rule for that in here....somewhere..." and then find a rule that kinda, sorta, maybe fits but there's a degree of interpretation required so it's not cut and dried, letting the argument continue.

Lest anyone think that printing out RROP and taping them to the walls will solve all your problems, it won't. In fact, it might even cause more problems if there isn't a respected person who can handle the margin cases and make calls that will overjoy one friend and totally piss off another. In a casino that's one reason you pay a rake - it covers the salary of a neutral arbiter, who (in theory) knows the rules and can apply them on the spot. In a home game you're not going to have that and there will inevitably be some degree of conflict of interest when the "floor" is also playing but if you've got a good group who respects that person's impartiality it polices itself. Having a solid command of the rules gets you 40% there. The other 60% is applying them consistently, correctly, and fairly. Then when the unpopular ruling comes down everyone lives with it. They may disagree but they can respect it.
 
Wedge: #5 updated, thanks!

Steve: Hope it helps! For our friendly game, we apply Rule #10 to all formats. Not that it has ever come up in NL or PL.
 
NL and PL are limited to three raises?

word.jpg
 
WedgeRock said:
NL and PL are limited to three raises?

word.jpg
Click to expand...
No, but the first part of that rule applies to all forms of poker:

"Please act in turn, as Folding, Checking, or Betting out of turn can affect the other players in the hand. "
 
inca911 said:
For our friendly game, we apply Rule #10 to all formats. Not that it has ever come up in NL or PL.
Click to expand...

We play this rule at our NLHE micro game, as well. It has value.

It's still No-Limit because the bets have no upper bound, but we're controlling how many times a tiny bump can go back and forth.
 

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