All-in heads up. How would you rule? (3 Viewers)

[kirchhausen]

The situation sucks, but at the end of the day they went all in pre-flop. The dummy who tried to fold is lucky that 1) two people saw his hand and 2) his cards were retrievable. In the end he had the best hand and should be awarded the pot. I hope the guy who had the losing hand gets that.

 

[lewan]

this thread is old but my question is... do the villain's cards actually go into the muck? if the cards enter the muck pile, then they are considered dead. if they do not enter the pile. they are live. any other fellow dealers can correct me but this is my understanding of the rule.

*EDIT*

"The cards fall short of the muck pile"

unfortunately his hand is still live in this instance. the dealer fucked up heavy though.

 

[Taghkanic]

this thread is old but my question is... do the villain's cards actually go into the muck? if the cards enter the muck pile, then they are considered dead. if they do not enter the pile. they are live. any other fellow dealers can correct me but this is my understanding of the rule.

*EDIT*

"The cards fall short of the muck pile"

unfortunately his hand is still live in this instance. the dealer fucked up heavy though.

I was at a Rivers casino one night when the floor ruled *twice* (two different tables) that even if someone’s cards hit the muck, they could be retrieved if they could be correctly identified.

Players were up in arms about it. Might have been a fluke related to just one floor manager.

 

[lewan]

I was at a Rivers casino one night when the floor ruled *twice* (two different tables) that even if someone’s cards hit the muck, they could be retrieved if they could be correctly identified.

Players were up in arms about it. Might have been a fluke related to just one floor manager.

that is outrageous

 

[CrazyEddie]

that is outrageous

It's consistent with what the TDA found when polling their members (i.e. casinos and cardrooms). Different houses have different rules regarding this question, but "if they can still be identified then they're still live" was sufficiently-well supported by the membership to be adopted by the TDA. ... and yes, the TDA is about tournaments, not cash, but the individual houses are generally going to apply the same rules (mostly) to their cash games and tournaments, at least for stuff like this which isn't obviously only relevant to tournaments.

It's also consistent with Robert's Rules, albeit "at management's discretion".

 

[glynn]

The concept of a "magic muck" has long been considered to be the more outrageous belief. The rule as described by the Rivers floor is completely standard (edit: but those dealers probably need some retraining).

This is different for player-dealt home games of course, where there isn't as much consistency in the follow-through when it comes to sweeping a hand into the muck. For practical reasons, there needs to be another understanding of when a hand is truly dead.

 

[facinfears217]

Full ring $1/$2 NLHE home game, unrestricted straddle, re-straddle option.

Hero straddles to $6, Villain re-straddles to $16 and gets four callers, including the BB. $71 in the pot.

Action on the last to straddle who has $83 behind and opts to go all-in. Folds to the BB who calls. $237 in the pot.

The dealer lays out the flop, turn and river card. BB shows A,Q for top pair, queen kicker. Villain says he missed the straight. As he is picking up his cards, he flashes 6/7 off-suit for the BB to see, then gently tosses his hand (face down) in to the center of the table. The cards fall short of the muck pile.

Dealer and Hero see that the Villain had a six high flush.

Dealer points out the four hearts on the board and tells the Villain he has the flush.

Who does the pot belong to? And why?

cards dont hit the muck they are live if cards hit muck its heros pot.

 

[Mojo1312]

I am of the minority opinion. Even though Villain's cards did not hit the muck pile, he clearly relinquished his hand not knowing he had the flush. IMO, the dealer should only have spoken up if the Villain had tabled his hand. One player to a hand.

 

[boozymelon]

I think it really depends on the style of home game your running, friendly, serious, paid dealers etc. If it is friends playing together I think there is flexibility. If it is a game with a paid dealer and rake taken then I think the ruling goes by the below.

My ruling is all-in wins because villain mucks face down, his action was to fold and he folded, rather than choosing to show his cards. Regardless of cards falling short of the muck and exposing his hand to players at the table, player elected to fold. There is no way the player who showed his hand, should be punished for the dealer over stepping and a player who mucked his cards to be rewarded with the pot.

That being said if the player w 67 is a VIP, I think you could negotiate a chop pot as he should've won but mucked his cards. I think there is no situation in which AQ should be losing the pot.