All-in heads up. How would you rule? (1 Viewer)

[Hornet]

How long do you wait to give the player a chance to correct their error—before the dealer just thinks, OK, he’s not retrieving them, time to award the pot to the other guy?

This situation is slightly different since the player had been alerted to his mistake by others. But if no one says anything, but the dealer knows he could still win, presumably the dealer doesn’t have to wait indefinitely for the player to wise up.

We instruct the dealer to take the cards as soon as he is able to and not wait. But sometimes other stuff is happening and it takes a few seconds. The dealer deliberately waiting itself communicates information to the player who threw his cards towards the muck.

 

[Rieguy]

If you play by the letter of the law, the person who mucked loses.

In our friendly home game, everyone is tabling their cards once they're all-in. If for some odd reason that didn't happen, we would probably be okay letting the flush win once it is known to all. Collectively, with this specific group, the guys would likely rather have the cards speak for themselves in a win instead of lose on a rule technicality. However, our more serious group would default to the letter of the law and the mucked hand would be just that.

So I would say just be consistent as to your own personal game or house rules. If you guys are strict, stay strict, and so on.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

If the cards are easily and unmistakably retrievable the dealer made the right decision. He showed his cards which validates the showdown. I think theres a fine line here because if he didn't show, or tossed them into a pile of cards they're gone. The should never be touched or retrieved by any player. To me, you had a capable dealer that was paying attention and rewarded the correct winning hand.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

We’ve had this exact situation in our home game. First off, dealer absolutely SHOULD NOT have pointed out that Villain had a flush. But the fact is he did point it out, and this should be treated like any other hand that is thrown face down towards the muck. If the cards are clearly separated and retrievable, we allow players to grab their cards and then table them. If Villain does that, he should be rewarded the pot, and dealer should justifiably be chewed out.

In my earlier post I gave the strictly correct answer, but probably should have also given the "most home games want to do this" answer that @Hornet gave.

As others have said, once the cat is out of the bag and everyone knows Villain had a flush, it's tough to do anything other than give him the pot and move on. But the table gets a lecture on OPTAH, and I am going to slap the everloving hell out of dealer's peepee for violating it.

 

[CrazyEddie]

His hand was discarded, but not mucked by the dealer yet. Throwing his hand away did not cause action by a later player. Hand is not dead, could be retrieved and tabled to win the pot, IMO.

This seems correct to me.

This does not violate the one player to a hand rule. He exposed his hand at showdown, not during action.

Edit: I was wrong.

This seems correct to me. Furthermore, all players and the dealer have an obligation to ensure that (among other things) the best hand shown down is awarded the pot. The player he exposed his hand to has both the right and the obligation to point out that his hand is a winner, as does anyone else who saw the hand while it was being exposed.

Once it's pointed out that his discarded hand is a winner, as long as his cards can be identified they should be retrieved even if they've touched the muck and given back to him so that he can table his hand and claim the pot.

Here's an oddity: The winning player does not have the option to muck his hand and forgo the pot! This is a form of collusion and is forbidden. Tournament rules require exposing your cards during an all-in in order to prevent this, but even in a cash game intentionally giving up a won pot is potentially an indication of collusion and must be guarded against. This is why even in a cash game any player dealt into the hand is entitled to see any hand that was shown down, even if it was mucked - a privilege that should only be invoked if collusion is suspected.

This point is underappreciated, but it is fundamental.

So, yes. Anyone who saw his cards can and should point out that he won the hand, and if his cards can still be identified (whether in the muck or not) they can and should be retrieved and exposed in order to verify what the other players pointed out, and if upon exposing them it's confirmed that he won the hand he should be awarded the pot. This is all required by the standard rules of poker, in part to prevent collusion.

 

[Rhodeman77]

@Rhodeman77 @Hornet

Love to hear your analysis.

I would rule the hand live and award it the flush. I would understand if the other player would be rightfully pissed and admonish the dealer for saying anything about a hand that hasn’t been tabled. Playing PLO and other games with many hole cards this happens a lot more often. Players miss runner runner hands they hit because they were focused on what they flopped.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Table your hand or it is dead.

 

[Machine]

How long do you wait to give the player a chance to correct their error—before the dealer just thinks, OK, he’s not retrieving them, time to award the pot to the other guy?

This situation is slightly different since the player had been alerted to his mistake by others. But if no one says anything, but the dealer knows he could still win, presumably the dealer doesn’t have to wait indefinitely for the player to wise up.

0 seconds. The dealer should NOT alter the systematic function of the deal process. When mucked, the dealer should scope / drag the cards into the muck at the normal rate s/he would muck anyones cards

caveat: if someone folds out of turn should, wait till the action is on the pre-mucker, that mother....

 

[Irish]

This is a perfect example of why following proper table etiquette is so important. Be clear with your actions and don't show a "peek" of your cards to certain folks. The combination of all that poor etiquette just compounds the problems here.

As this played out, I'd rule the hand recoverable and award the pot to the flush, then remind THE ENTIRE TABLE about proper etiquette. Assuming I'm reading the playout correctly - the main reason I do this is because the player flashed the hand to the BB - and in a fashion that 2 other players saw it (dealer and hero). At that point, it probably becomes unclear to the table whether the hand is tabled or not, so I honestly don't 100% fault the dealer (assuming he's a player) in speaking up.

 

[warma]

To answer @Moxie Mike's question. Villain reached in and pulled in his cards. He flipped them over revealing the six high flush.

Edit: to the second question: Two decks are used. One deck is shuffled two behind while the other deck is being dealt.

After which Villian scooped up the chips?

 

[timinater]

This is a tough situation that comes up far too often. Let that be a lesson to the 67 guy to table his hand every time.

Around here if you show your hand to one player but not all, it’s pretty much customary that the dealer will expose the hand. Show one show all. 67 gets the pot.

Cards speak and it’s incumbent upon all to point out errors in awarding a pot.

TLDR/ table your hand without delay.

EDIT TO ADD: imagine showing your cards to the villain, AND dealer, and neither having the integrity to point out you have the winning hand. I’d pack up and head home immediately.

 

[Poker Zombie]

The “show one show all” rule requires that if a player shares information about their hole cards with any other player at their table, they must share the same information with all the other players at their table too. The rule serves both to keep everyone on an even footing in the information market, and to prevent certain kinds of collusion.

I know flashing to a buddy or the guy next to you then mucking is commonplace, but common lax enforcement of the rules is no excuse when it comes to a rules question.

Show one, show all.
The hand is tabled.
Tabled cards speak for themselves.

No problem interpreting the rule when you follow all the rules.

 

[Irish]

This is a perfect example of why following proper table etiquette is so important. Be clear with your actions and don't show a "peek" of your cards to certain folks. The combination of all that poor etiquette just compounds the problems here.

As this played out, I'd rule the hand recoverable and award the pot to the flush, then remind THE ENTIRE TABLE about proper etiquette. Assuming I'm reading the playout correctly - the main reason I do this is because the player flashed the hand to the BB - and in a fashion that 2 other players saw it (dealer and hero). At that point, it probably becomes unclear to the table whether the hand is tabled or not, so I honestly don't 100% fault the dealer (assuming he's a player) in speaking up.

Supplementing the above after some additional reflection - based on the game pics and info that @Mojo1312 typically posts here on PCF, I would wager that none of the actions in this sequence were done with any malicious or angly intentions. This sounds like a group that has played together for a while and gotten very comfortable with each other - to the point where you may be getting a little lax/lazy with table etiquette. It happens! As someone who's hosted for a long time, I see this pop up from time to time. Sometimes it takes a hand like this to snap folks back into line - if there wasn't any discussions on the hand immediately after it happened, it may be worth bringing up again at the next game, just to re-emphasis how badly things can go sideways with just a few relaxations of proper play.

It should also serve as a nice reminder to everyone who hosts, if you start seeing these types of behaviors popping up in games, start course correcting sooner rather than later - despite the moans and groans that you may get about being a rule nazi. Send them a link to this thread lol

 

[IaHawk]

67d is fun IP post flop against condensed ranges but you want a higher SPR than 0

I’m sure the villain used this thought process.

 

[buzzmonkey]

To answer @Moxie Mike's question. Villain reached in and pulled in his cards. He flipped them over revealing the six high flush.

Edit: to the second question: Two decks are used. One deck is shuffled two behind while the other deck is being dealt.

This changes things in my opinion. The player retrieved what were obviously his cards and then tabled them earning back his right to the pot. The question then becomes, does the dealer have the right to point out the player's error if the player has exposed his cards but has not properly tabled them.

 

[Shaggy]

This changes things in my opinion. The player retrieved what were obviously his cards and then tabled them earning back his right to the pot. The question then becomes, does the dealer have the right to point out the player's error if the player has exposed his cards but has not properly tabled them.

Suppose the dealer simply asks the player: You exposed your cards, did you intend to table them?

If he responds with no... say no more and pull them into the muck. If he says yes, table them for him and award him the pot.

 

[upNdown]

I don't know if the show one, show all rule applies. I haven't read the rule lately, but I've always seen it work as a rule that only applies on demand. I think maybe once or twice in a hundred of those situations does the dealer retrieve the cards and show them to everybody, unless somebody actually asks to see them.
But personally, I think intentionally flashing his cards at showdown, especially if the dealer sees them, functions as constructively tabling his cards. He showed his cards - I don't think the fact that not everybody saw them, or that he didn't carefully place them face up in front of him matters.
Flush wins, I say.

 

[Machine]

I don't know if the show one, show all rule applies. I haven't read the rule lately, but I've always seen it work as a rule that only applies on demand. I think maybe once or twice in a hundred of those situations does the dealer retrieve the cards and show them to everybody, unless somebody actually asks to see them.

I agree, there is actually a discussion topic about this in Cooke's real rules of poker (iirc). Talks about rewarding the pot then exposing hands, the dealer should actually never expose a hand, they (dealer) should call the house or floor person to make the call and expose the hand. This is especially if it is a cash game.

But personally, I think intentionally flashing his cards at showdown, especially if the dealer sees them, functions as constructively tabling his cards.

I disagree, but I wasn't there when the game started, and the host explained all of the rules or highlights of tabling a hand. Basically, if the player reasonable doesn't know I would grudgingly agree with this point.

 

[upNdown]

If you don't know why you won, you shouldn't win

I appreciate that sentiment; I used to think the same way. But that is kind of the opposite of the actual rule. Unless it's a house rule, then it's fine.
And, for what it's worth, rules that protect idiots are good for the game - we want the idiots at the table.

 

[CraigT78]

I think one thing we can ALL agree on.......this should have been a poll.

Am I right @Sprouty ?

 

[Sprouty]

I think one thing we can ALL agree on.......this should have been a poll.

Am I right @Sprouty ?

Yep, too many words.

Not enough poll.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

The player he exposed his hand to has both the right and the obligation to point out that his hand is a winner, as does anyone else who saw the hand while it was being exposed.

Absolutely not, because villain exposed a live hand but did not table. OPTAH still applies in the decision to table or muck a hand at showdown. If you want the benefit of hiding information, you incur the risk of misreading your hand and losing the pot.

The simple answer here, especially for a low stakes home game, is just to table your hand. At that point, the dealer and all players become obligated to make sure the winning hand gets the pot. Not before.

I know flashing to a buddy or the guy next to you then mucking is commonplace, but common lax enforcement of the rules is no excuse when it comes to a rules question.

Show one, show all.
The hand is tabled.
Tabled cards speak for themselves.

In this scenario, I believe that most card rooms would only enforce SOSA after the pot was awarded, and the hand would be dead. Some places will keep the hand live if the winner of the pot was the one who asked to see the hand.

 

[CrazyEddie]

I don't know if the show one, show all rule applies. I haven't read the rule lately, but I've always seen it work as a rule that only applies on demand.

In this situation, RRoP implies that it's on demand: "After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards." Whereas in a different situation, it's not optional: "During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players."

[BTW, FWIW I personally disagree with a "show one show all" requirement in certain circumstances: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...tte-or-totally-fine.76899/page-2#post-1659442 - but that's a different discussion, literally]

I think intentionally flashing his cards at showdown, especially if the dealer sees them, functions as constructively tabling his cards. He showed his cards - I don't think the fact that not everybody saw them, or that he didn't carefully place them face up in front of him matters.

Edit: I was wrong.

IMHO, the requirement to table one's cards in order to claim a pot is not met by merely showing one's cards to someone else, or even several other people, or even casually revealing them to anyone who might be watching and then discarding them. IMHO, tabling one's cards means putting them on display such that anyone who cares to can examine them and leaving them on display until the pot has been awarded.

That said, for reasons I explained in my previous post, discarding one's cards with or without exposing them to anyone or everyone does not disqualify one from winning the pot, as long as the discarded cards can still be identified.

So in short: flashing your cards doesn't count as tabling them, but flashing them and discarding them doesn't mean you can't still retrieve them and then table them.

 

[casinochipper22]

first of all, fire the dealer. Second, this has happened a few times in the poker room I worked at. Exact scenario but instead of dealer pointing it out, a player did. Before the hand reached the muck. And I've seen this happen while playing at Venetian also. All rulings I've seen/heard of is that it is "one person to a hand". And a players "intention of folding" can be a fold. So all have ruled the hand is dead. As soon as someone speaks up about another persons hand, that is coaching, and more than one player to a hand.

Only instance where this would be retrievable is that, without anyone saying anything, the player instantly grabs his own cards before dealer has put them in the muck, or even lays a finger on them, and turns them over himself. Anything short of that is a dead hand.

everyone just needs to STFU during showdown.

 

[casinochipper22]

Suppose the dealer simply asks the player: You exposed your cards, did you intend to table them?

If he responds with no... say no more and pull them into the muck. If he says yes, table them for him and award him the pot

never... ever... ever... should a dealer ask anything like that.

I think intentionally flashing his cards at showdown, especially if the dealer sees them, functions as constructively tabling his cards. He showed his cards - I don't think the fact that not everybody saw them, or that he didn't carefully place them face up in front of him matters.
Flush wins, I say.

Tabling a hand is putting the cards face down on the felt. anything short of that you have absolutely no recourse. In a local card room, guy at showdown holds his cards, flips them over in his hands for the entire table to see, then turns his hand over and mucks the winner. Entire table erupts in laughter. Guys goes crazy. Floor calls surveillance, surveillance confirms the exact hand he has (a winner) and also says he does not table the hand. He loses. Its a mucked hand.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Absolutely not, because villain exposed a live hand but did not table. OPTAH still applies in the decision to table or muck a hand at showdown. If you want the benefit of hiding information, you incur the risk of misreading your hand and losing the pot.

You are right and I was wrong. I retract my previous post entirely. My apologies for misleading anyone.

 

[moose]

I WOULD RULE WITH AN IRON FIST.

But if you're talking about this hand, I give the pot to BB.

Villain chose not to table his hand, even though he was all-in and action was complete. For that reason, no one can help him read his cards, tell him what he's got, or tell him what to do. One player to a hand.

Of course, if he tables his hand, then everyone at the table can (and should) make sure that he gets the pot if his hand is the winner.

This

Dealer violated the "One Player to a Hand" rule and needs to STFU. Cards were not tabled, so "cards speak" doesn't apply yet.

That being said, you cannot rewind time. If the player with the 76o reaches in and tables his cards before they become indistinguishable from the rest of the muck pile, he wins the pot. If not, BB wins the pot.

And this.

I'm going with the unpopular opinion. He exposed his cards to two other players, who in turn pointed out his hand was the winner.

They were all in preflop? Have your players table their hands when all in and you'll never have to make this ruling again.

OPTAH applies

We use WSOP tournament rules to remove as much question or ambiguity on rulings as possible. The following are rules that would apply at my place:

• Players MUST turn cards face up when all in.
• Cards play themselves.
• The dealer can remove cards from the muck if they are identifiable.
• Show one show all.

Given the scenario you presented, I would have ruled that the the villain wins. He showed the BB, and the dealer saw. I know he's a fool for not just tabling his cards, but he showed and his cards win.

Tournament rules not a cash game

This appears to be a cash game, not a tournament.


He should not expose his cards, two other players should have said nothing, the rule is 1 player per hand.

There is no requirement to show your hand in a cash game, and you can give up at any point you want, it would be incorrect to 'have' players table their hands. Encourage yes, force no.


I agree

This

But he showed them to the BB. Isn't the rule, show one, show all?

Show one show all doesn't change OPTAH

I don't know if the show one, show all rule applies. I haven't read the rule lately, but I've always seen it work as a rule that only applies on demand. I think maybe once or twice in a hundred of those situations does the dealer retrieve the cards and show them to everybody, unless somebody actually asks to see them.
But personally, I think intentionally flashing his cards at showdown, especially if the dealer sees them, functions as constructively tabling his cards. He showed his cards - I don't think the fact that not everybody saw them, or that he didn't carefully place them face up in front of him matters.
Flush wins, I say.

Doesn't matter if he waves the cards in everyone's face. No-one should react until he tables his cards. OPTAH applies.
If he shows everyone and mucks, then his hand is dead. Doesn't matter if it is retrievable or not. If he tables his cards then anyone can assist with determining the winner.

This is my posted home game rule on this subject:

It is the player's responsibility to table his cards. The hand isn't over until he decides to table his cards or muck them and that is his decision -- 1 player per hand, period.

In a casino, if he flashes his cards to another player, show one show all applies. Proper procedure is for the dealer to pick the cards from the muck (if retrievable), tap the cards on the muck to kill the hand, and then expose them to the other players. His hand is dead and can not be a winner.

 

[moose]

never... ever... ever... should a dealer ask anything like that.


Tabling a hand is putting the cards face down on the felt. anything short of that you have absolutely no recourse. In a local card room, guy at showdown holds his cards, flips them over in his hands for the entire table to see, then turns his hand over and mucks the winner. Entire table erupts in laughter. Guys goes crazy. Floor calls surveillance, surveillance confirms the exact hand he has (a winner) and also says he does not table the hand. He loses. Its a mucked hand.

You mean face UP

 

[casinochipper22]

You mean face UP

yep. thanks.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

This

And this.

OPTAH applies

Tournament rules not a cash game

This

Show one show all doesn't change OPTAH

Doesn't matter if he waves the cards in everyone's face. No-one should react until he tables his cards. OPTAH applies.
If he shows everyone and mucks, then his hand is dead. Doesn't matter if it is retrievable or not. If he tables his cards then anyone can assist with determining the winner.

This is my posted home game rule on this subject:

It is the player's responsibility to table his cards. The hand isn't over until he decides to table his cards or muck them and that is his decision -- 1 player per hand, period.

In a casino, if he flashes his cards to another player, show one show all applies. Proper procedure is for the dealer to pick the cards from the muck (if retrievable), tap the cards on the muck to kill the hand, and then expose them to the other players. His hand is dead and can not be a winner.

We use WSOP tournament rules to govern our cash games because everybody has played at some casino somewhere where they ruled in their favor; which leads to endless debates. So I went with a well known standard.

Plus, my house my (rather the WSOP's) rules.