All-in heads up. How would you rule? (1 Viewer)

[Mojo1312]

Full ring $1/$2 NLHE home game, unrestricted straddle, re-straddle option.

Hero straddles to $6, Villain re-straddles to $16 and gets four callers, including the BB. $71 in the pot.

Action on the last to straddle who has $83 behind and opts to go all-in. Folds to the BB who calls. $237 in the pot.

The dealer lays out the flop, turn and river card. BB shows A,Q for top pair, queen kicker. Villain says he missed the straight. As he is picking up his cards, he flashes 6/7 off-suit for the BB to see, then gently tosses his hand (face down) in to the center of the table. The cards fall short of the muck pile.

Dealer and Hero see that the Villain had a six high flush.

Dealer points out the four hearts on the board and tells the Villain he has the flush.

Who does the pot belong to? And why?

 

[moechar]

Since they were all in pre flop it should go to whoever had the best hand I’m guessing… it’s not like he shoved on the River thinking he was bluffing and misread it and threw it away. I vote the dude with the flush in this case.

 

[LeLe]

He mucks and tossed his hand, so he given up on the pot

In fact, I don’t think Dealer should have mentioned the flush at all

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I WOULD RULE WITH AN IRON FIST.

But if you're talking about this hand, I give the pot to BB.

Villain chose not to table his hand, even though he was all-in and action was complete. For that reason, no one can help him read his cards, tell him what he's got, or tell him what to do. One player to a hand.

Of course, if he tables his hand, then everyone at the table can (and should) make sure that he gets the pot if his hand is the winner.

 

[moechar]

Oh I didn’t realize they didn’t flip their cards over until the end. Yeah prob the AQ dude then.

 

[IaHawk]

Its unclear if villain mucks face up or down. Face up, easy decision...it's his pot...cards read. If he mucked face down and his cards did not touch the muck and then Hero and Dealer say "he actually had a flush". His cards can be retrieved and he should be awarded the pot.

 

[Mojo1312]

Its unclear if villain mucks face up or down. Face up, easy decision...it's his pot...cards read. If he mucked face down and his cards did not touch the muck and then Hero and Dealer say "he actually had a flush". His cards can be retrieved and he should be awarded the pot.

Cards were tossed face down. (Fixed post.)

 

[ArielVer18]

Dealer violated the "One Player to a Hand" rule and needs to STFU. Cards were not tabled, so "cards speak" doesn't apply yet.

That being said, you cannot rewind time. If the player with the 76o reaches in and tables his cards before they become indistinguishable from the rest of the muck pile, he wins the pot. If not, BB wins the pot.

 

[mnebesny]

If you don't know why you won, you shouldn't win

 

[buzzmonkey]

From RRoP

Showdown

1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

The player flashed is cards but did not table them face up.

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

The question to me is: were the cards tabled after villain was informed he was mucking the winning hand?
If they were still retrievable (it sounds like that was the case) and villain wants to table them now, I think he should be allowed to and win the pot with the best hand at showdown.
Since all action was already over before the river was dealt, he didn't fold to a bet, just failed to table his hand. Since this can be remedied, he gets the pot.

The dealer gets a stern warning to not get involved in player decisions and the game continues.

 

[Machine]

Forward motion of cards and no action with chips or intent to call.

Cards only play themselves if tabled face up, otherwise one player per hand, meaning no one can encourage him to table it.

Even the dealer can't tell him to table them or comment on them if seen.

It appears this is cash game, All-in doesn't function the same as it would in a tournament meaning the player can move all in and then fold preflop it desired. This might look like collusion though. The dealer should award the pot then expose the cards if they are ordered up.

 

[grebe]

Dealer violated the "One Player to a Hand" rule and needs to STFU. Cards were not tabled, so "cards speak" doesn't apply yet.

That being said, you cannot rewind time. If the player with the 76o reaches in and tables his cards before they become indistinguishable from the rest of the muck pile, he wins the pot. If not, BB wins the pot.

This sounds like the best answer all around.

So here's the SCRUPLE question though.....he flashes them to you, dealer says nothing. You see he is mucking the flush. Do you say anything, or let it go as an "idiot tax"?

 

[Machine]

If the player with the 76o reaches in and tables his cards before they become indistinguishable from the rest of the muck pile, he wins the pot.

Also wanted to comment on this.

The hand is considered mucked (dead) IF it touches the muck OR IF there is action behind the player. In this situation its hard to define what action behind the player would be, would you consider the winner tabling his hand as action? I feel its a grey area

 

[Frogzilla]

The key to playing double suited hands, with twice as many flush draws, is to notice when they come in.

I rule pot goes to BB as hand wasn’t tabled.

 

[CraigT78]

I'm going with the unpopular opinion. He exposed his cards to two other players, who in turn pointed out his hand was the winner.

They were all in preflop? Have your players table their hands when all in and you'll never have to make this ruling again.

 

[CraigT78]

@Rhodeman77 @Hornet

Love to hear your analysis.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

We use WSOP tournament rules to remove as much question or ambiguity on rulings as possible. The following are rules that would apply at my place:

• Players MUST turn cards face up when all in.
• Cards play themselves.
• The dealer can remove cards from the muck if they are identifiable.
• Show one show all.

Given the scenario you presented, I would have ruled that the the villain wins. He showed the BB, and the dealer saw. I know he's a fool for not just tabling his cards, but he showed and his cards win.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I'm going with the unpopular opinion. He exposed his cards to two other players, who in turn pointed out his hand was the winner.

They were all in preflop? Have your players table their hands when all in and you'll never have to make this ruling again.

+1 this ^^^^^

 

[ekricket]

I always laugh at these situations where people wont table their cards. Like anyone is going to glean any more information about which crappy two cards you play. They act like they are hiding them from Daniel N who might then get a soul read on every hand they play after that. Everybody is a professional gambler afraid that their secret “any two card” strategy is going to be revealed.

 

[Machine]

This appears to be a cash game, not a tournament.

I'm going with the unpopular opinion. He exposed his cards to two other players, who in turn pointed out his hand was the winner.

They were all in preflop? Have your players table their hands when all in and you'll never have to make this ruling again.

He should not expose his cards, two other players should have said nothing, the rule is 1 player per hand.

There is no requirement to show your hand in a cash game, and you can give up at any point you want, it would be incorrect to 'have' players table their hands. Encourage yes, force no.

I always laugh at these situations where people wont table their cards. Like anyone is going to glean any more information about which crappy two cards you play. They act like they are hiding them from Daniel N who might then get a soul read on every hand they play after that. Everybody is a professional gambler afraid that their secret “any two card” strategy is going to be revealed.

I agree

 

[Hornet]

@Rhodeman77 @Hornet

Love to hear your analysis.

We’ve had this exact situation in our home game. First off, dealer absolutely SHOULD NOT have pointed out that Villain had a flush. But the fact is he did point it out, and this should be treated like any other hand that is thrown face down towards the muck. If the cards are clearly separated and retrievable, we allow players to grab their cards and then table them. If Villain does that, he should be rewarded the pot, and dealer should justifiably be chewed out.

 

[Moxie Mike]

As he is picking up his cards, he flashes 6/7 off-suit for the BB to see, then gently tosses his hand (face down) in to the center of the table. The cards fall short of the muck pile.

Dealer and Hero see that the Villain had a six high flush.

Dealer points out the four hearts on the board and tells the Villain he has the flush.

Who does the pot belong to? And why?

What happened after the dealer told the Villain that he had a winning hand? From the description, his hole cards were obviously retrievable. Did he grab them and turn them over before the dealer could pull them in?

If so, he's then tabled a winning hand and should be awarded the pot.

However, if his cards were pulled into the muck pile, then his hand is dead and the BB wins the pot.

As an aside, is the 'dealer' a dedicated dealer for the night or is the deal passed around? Either way, this should serve as a training moment that the 'dealer' should remain silent unless the cards are actually tabled.

 

[CraigT78]

We’ve had this exact situation in our home game. First off, dealer absolutely SHOULD NOT have pointed out that Villain had a flush. But the fact is he did point it out, and this should be treated like any other hand that is thrown face down towards the muck. If the cards are clearly separated and retrievable, we allow players to grab their cards and then table them. If Villain does that, he should be rewarded the pot, and dealer should justifiably be chewed out.

But he showed them to the BB. Isn't the rule, show one, show all?

 

[Hornet]

But he showed them to the BB. Isn't the rule, show one, show all?

Not when it’s at showdown and it’s the difference between mucking and tabling the winning hand.

 

[Mojo1312]

To answer @Moxie Mike's question. Villain reached in and pulled in his cards. He flipped them over revealing the six high flush.

Edit: to the second question: Two decks are used. One deck is shuffled two behind while the other deck is being dealt.

 

[WedgeRock]

If pot is awarded to the guy who made it $154 to go in a multi-way pot holding 67o, chances are it's going to be redistributed to the table later that night.

Just sayin'...

His hand was discarded, but not mucked by the dealer yet. Throwing his hand away did not cause action by a later player. Hand is not dead, could be retrieved and tabled to win the pot, IMO.

This does not violate the one player to a hand rule. He exposed his hand at showdown, not during action.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Id be really pissed if I lost a $237 pot to a 6/7o because the Villain tried to muck and someone pointed out he made a flush with his 6, but I'd give him the pot since cards didn't hit the muck and were retrievable. I'd then compliment the Villain and encourage him to keep going all in or calling all ins with 6/7o.

 

[Frogzilla]

67d is fun IP post flop against condensed ranges but you want a higher SPR than 0

 

[Taghkanic]

If the cards are clearly separated and retrievable, we allow players to grab their cards and then table them. If Villain does that, he should be rewarded the pot, and dealer should justifiably be chewed out.

How long do you wait to give the player a chance to correct their error—before the dealer just thinks, OK, he’s not retrieving them, time to award the pot to the other guy?

This situation is slightly different since the player had been alerted to his mistake by others. But if no one says anything, but the dealer knows he could still win, presumably the dealer doesn’t have to wait indefinitely for the player to wise up.