Ad 4h 8d 8h playing O8

DrStrange

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We are playing pot limit Omaha, both O8 and traditional PLO. This hand is high/low split. We are nine handed and playing $0.50 / $0.50 with a $20 max buy in to protect the worst of the players from themselves. We are fifteen minutes into the session with Hero winning big and everyone else losing. Hero is lucky and good - the players are already crying.

Special betting rule - you can limp for $0.50 but every other bet has to be in dollar increments. Pot size is rounded up to the next dollar if there is an odd $0.50 chip.

Cast of characters:

Hero is winning with $200. Everyone hates him right now.

Everyone else has $10 to $35 and losing. More details as the hand unwinds.

The hand:

Four limps and two folds bring us to hero on the button. Hero has :ad: :4h: :8d: :8h: Limp, fold or raise? The SB has never raised a preflop hand in Omaha in her life. BB might raise the top 1% of hands. It is rather common to have someone limp a top quality Omaha hand, so you can't draw inferences from their preflop play.

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Ben

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No seriously though, don't raise. With stacks so shallow it's almost a fold, even for a limp OTB with virtually zero chance of a raise coming out of the blinds.
 

DrStrange

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*** On to the flop ***

Hero ponders a moment, fingering a pile of chips. Hero is considering fold vs limp, but before he acts the table starts to whine about Hero raising again. Hero offers them a vote - raise or call. The table votes call 6-0. Truth was, hero was leaning towards fold. Seven way action, $3.50 in pot.

Flop: :3d: :qh: :8c:

Action on Hero - anyone not betting pot?

DrStrange
 

bergs

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With these stacks, I'm absolutely potting. With deeper stacks, I might put a smallish bet out there given that there aren't any obvious draws on the board and see if I get pressure from a tight player.
 

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*** on to the turn ***

Sorry for the delay.

Hero bets pot - $4

SB calls (SB started with $25, now $20 after calling. SB is often a big loser in our games. Thinks like a bad holdem player, her hand ranges are hugely too wide. Bets second pair or better, but always tiny amounts relative to the pot.)

UTG calls ( UTG started with $20, now $15 after calling. UTG is loose, passive, sticky. Not very good at Omaha, thinks like a hold'em player. Doesn't read hands well.)

CO calls (CO started with $35, now $30 after calling. He is tricky-trappy, loose, sticky. Plays a lot of Omaha, mostly fixed and spread limit. Likely does not break even but he would say differently.)

Four way action, $19.50 in the pot

Turn is < :3d: :qh: :8c: > :4c:

All three villains check to Hero. (effective stacks are $20, $15, $30) Does Hero check or bet? Does he bet less than pot?

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atomiktoaster

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$10 on the turn and $20 on a safe river. If they're as sticky as advertised, you could just check and pot the river, but probably have some risk of a smaller pot when the river comes around. Hero has to put himself ahead of the majority of each of the villains ranges. Probably multiple club flush or straight draws around. Give yourself a chance to smell it out then. You'll be able to get the rest of the money in if it's no more than $20 at that point.
 

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Must-bet; we have the effective nut high (I'm assuming even these players would have raised flop with QQ) and multiple callers who must all have made a low (?) On one hand you get value in Omaha when opponents are drawing, not when they have already missed, but on the other I'm not sure if a full-pot bet isn't going to chase away action we want here (from hands with no equity to the high.) Bet $7, then if the $15 stack shoves you can reshove against the others who will be pot-committed by then.
 

atomiktoaster

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Must-bet; we have the effective nut high (I'm assuming even these players would have raised flop with QQ) and multiple callers who must all have made a low (?) On one hand you get value in Omaha when opponents are drawing, not when they have already missed, but on the other I'm not sure if a full-pot bet isn't going to chase away action we want here (from hands with no equity to the high.) Bet $7, then if the $15 stack shoves you can reshove against the others who will be pot-committed by then.

Jesus, I forgot we were playing Hi/Lo... I think I'll stick with my posted plan, but I'm not sure I can come up with a reason why. Remind me to stay away from the circus table if I end up at a meetup.
 

grandgnu

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Ugh, what a terrible turn card. I don't really play PL, but I think I'd be checking behind. I'm assuming this field doesn't like to fold, and we are more than likely in a spot where we are being freerolled (i.e. we may have the high half at the moment, but we have no shot at winning the low half, and someone can outdraw and scoop us on the river)

And freerolling these monkeys is how you should be making money, not vice versa.
 

DrStrange

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This street was a lot more interesting the day after the game than at the table. After action review always gives me food for thought.

Hero might not be as good at Omaha as he thinks -=- DrStrange
 

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*** and now the river ***

Hero decides to bet less than pot, $10.

SB calls (SB started with $25, now $10 after calling. SB is often a big loser in our games. Thinks like a bad holdem player, her hand ranges are hugely too wide. Bets second pair or better, but always tiny amounts relative to the pot.)

UTG folds

CO calls (CO started with $35, now $20 after calling. He is tricky-trappy, loose, sticky. Plays a lot of Omaha, mostly fixed and spread limit. Likely does not break even but he would say differently.)

$49.50 in the pot, three players to see the river.

River is: < :3d: :qh: :8c: > :4c: :6h:

Two checks to hero. Check or bet?

DrStrange
 

derekdd23

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All the wrap draws just got there, if you have any reads go with them. Otherwise check and take down the pot more ofen then not.
 

DrStrange

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Hero can close the action by checking. Since the villains have $10 and $20 left, hero does not fear a check raise. The core decision is check or bet $20.

DrStrange
 

grandgnu

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I still like checking behind. A villain with 25 may fear the 57 and A2 are out and not be willing to bet themselves for fear of losing on both sides, but may figure they're good for at least half the pot when it gets checked to you and you are the one who fires.

Bottom line, I don't think you're going to extract a ton of value here by betting, given at best you're getting half the pot the majority of the time.
 

DrStrange

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*** The end ***

Hero bets $25. SB folds and saves her last $10. CO calls with a short speech about how he expects to win high vs Hero's low and chop. CO tables :ac: :kd: :qc: :js: for top pair/top kicker. Hero sweeps.

I thought this hand was a mess for hero even if he is stacking a big pile of chips. I grade it:
Preflop = C (hand is destined to make second place way too often, even with position it is marginal)
Flop = A (second set with no low yet is a clear bet)
Turn = F Hero is often getting freerolled and is setting himself up for a river value bet he will feel forced to call.
RIver = D+ I can't see hero getting more than his money back many times. Both of those villains might check straights on the river.

But look at the results! not how we got there -=- DrStrange
 

DrStrange

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It will be at least 2016 before another pot limit game, maybe 2017. The winners left a mighty big scar this tine around for a game with a $20 max buy-in. They learn better then forget after the wounds heal.

And remember, they begged me for this game -=- DrStrange

PS CO goes for 70bb with top pair/top kicker and a package of runner runner draws hoping to make a one-way hand. And he plays this game at casino stakes on limit tables.
 
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