AA vs KK 5 handed (1 Viewer)

[colter ripton]

Is there any way to get away from KK preflop 5 handed?

So here is the situation.

I had been having a bad session for about the first 6 hours, but had kept re-buying and had been hitting some flops for the last couple hours. I was back in the green. In the game for 1600 and sitting on about 1800 in chips. Its 430 in the morning on Sunday morning. The table is down to 5 handed, and there is a lot of action. (Its a 2-3 table) max buy in is 600. The game plays pretty big, and it's not uncommon for there to be some pretty big stacks.

I am under the gun with KK and raise to 20 dollars. Folds to the button who re raises to 45 dollars. Folds back to me and I make it 125. The guy on the button shoves the rest of his stack (about 650 total including his 45)

He's a pretty tight player, and I'm sure he has a premium hand. I think for about 30 seconds and make the call. He shows AA and I don't improve. The game breaks about 20 mins later and I go home down 600.

Is there any way to find a fold here? I mean, I know he's tight...... probably the tightest player at the table, and I had a feeling he had aces, but i couldn't bring myself to fold the Ks.

I hate losing a big pot right before the game breaks......... It's happened twice in my last two sessions.

Last Tuesday I was sitting on a pretty good profit, and lost 1100 dollars (2200 dollar pot) within an hour of the game breaking.

I've had a pretty good run this time home so far. ( i work away from home a couple months at a time) Out of 6 sessions I have won 4 times, but it's those two big pots right at the end of the night that i keep thinking about. One took me from up 200 to down 600. And the other took me from up 1000 to cashing out minus 400. (Lost a couple hundred more before the game broke.)

I don't know if I could have gotten away from either of the pots, but maybe I should just cash out before 5am? Lol

 

[navels]

no

 

[Lemonzest]

If you want to improve this isnt the spot. There are many ways to hone your game but getting away from this is hard.

I am sure some would argue its always bad to fold KK live pre flop.

Personally never folding KK pre amytime after midnight...

Its not a hand to beat yourself up over.

 

[trigs]

You can't fold KK there. If you start folding kings preflop just because it's getting close to the end of the game that's very exploitable.

 

[colter ripton]

Here is the other hand.... this one maybe I could have gotten away from, but Its a pretty tough spot.

About 5 am again. I'm in the game for 1000 and sitting on about 2100 in chips. Down to 5 handed on the last table running. Game is playing very loose and agressive. UTG bets 35. (Its a 2-3 game lol) I look down at AK heart club. I re raise to 115. Folds around and villan who makes the call. Flop is A 10 6 with 2 hearts. Villian checks and I check behind to disguise the strength of my hand. Turn card is the 5 of hearts putting 3 hearts out there. Villian checks and I bet 125. Villian raises to 600. I think about it for a while and decide he has ak with the k of hearts or aq with the q of hearts. (I'm thinking that because of my check on the flop he doesn't put me on an ace) Either way I think im good or free rolling. The villian was pretty tight, and I didn't think he would have called preflop with any of the combinations left that made a flush. I thought he might have pocket 10s, but decided it was unlikely. Either way I thought I was probably ahead, but if not I had a redraw. So I went all in. Villian calls and the river was a blank. Villian turns over kj of hearts for the turned flush and scoops the 2250ish pot. Villian cashes out shortly after and the game breaks.

 

[v1pe]

You are playing 2/5?

EDIT: NVM, I see 2/3 in your post now.

 

[colter ripton]

You are playing 2/5?

Its 2/3, but it has pretty much replaced the 2/5 game at my local casino. The game gets pretty big, and is filled with all the same players I use to play 2/5 with.

 

[Perthmike]

With regards to your initial hand, there are only one or two old nits that I know so well that I’m ever folding kk pre-flop to, and probably only in a similar spot to which you described.

Against all other players I’m jamming all day long in that spot. Plenty of times you’ll be up against 10s plus and aq or ak.

 

[Quad Johnson]

The problem with folding kings preflop is that you will be wrong more often than you're right. Accept it as the cooler it is and shrug it off.

I've had my KK run into AA twice in live poker while getting action from much worse the rest of the time.

 

[Perthmike]

Here is the other hand.... this one maybe I could have gotten away from, but Its a pretty tough spot.

About 5 am again. I'm in the game for 1000 and sitting on about 2100 in chips. Down to 5 handed on the last table running. Game is playing very loose and agressive. UTG bets 35. (Its a 2-3 game lol) I look down at AK heart club. I re raise to 115. Folds around and villan who makes the call. Flop is A 10 6 with 2 hearts. Villian checks and I check behind to disguise the strength of my hand. Turn card is the 5 of hearts putting 3 hearts out there. Villian checks and I bet 125. Villian raises to 600. I think about it for a while and decide he has ak with the k of hearts or aq with the q of hearts. (I'm thinking that because of my check on the flop he doesn't put me on an ace) Either way I think im good or free rolling. The villian was pretty tight, and I didn't think he would have called preflop with any of the combinations left that made a flush. I thought he might have pocket 10s, but decided it was unlikely. Either way I thought I was probably ahead, but if not I had a redraw. So I went all in. Villian calls and the river was a blank. Villian turns over kj of hearts for the turned flush and scoops the 2250ish pot. Villian cashes out shortly after and the game breaks.

Thats a pretty gross outcome but I don’t see how you get away from that one either.

Hopefully @DrStrange has some thoughts on this one.

I need to work a lot on my game, but my rookie thoughts would be that 10s is definitely in his range given that he flat called pre-flop, but I’d not expect him to flat with any pocket pairs more premium than that. He could have ak,aq but you have the ace of heart blocker to that.

His check doesn’t tell you much on the flop, and I’d be betting that (and most of my range) flop for around $80-100. That might help you define his range a bit more depending on whether he flats or re-raises.

When he check raises the turn, he’s certainly repping the flush, but you have top pair and the ace blocker. Personally I’d maybe look to flat the turn and see what card comes on the river. I could be wrong here but what worse hands are calling your all in? If you flat, and he is bluffing you allow him the chance to make another attempt to bluff the river.

Super tough spot though and I’m keen to see what others think.

 

[DrStrange]

It is generally best to put one hand is a thread by itself. . . .

AA vs KK. . . . This is so much villain dependent. And in this situation, Hero has a good villain to be facing. Vs a drunk or a LAG or someone on monkey tilt Hero is going to get stacked.

So Hero opens to $20 UTG. We don't know if that is normal. We don't know Hero's table image. I'll assume $20 is a normal 4:00 am raise and that Hero is "reasonable" for a 5 way table.

Villain basically min raises. Sometimes that does not mean much. Other times it is alarming. Villain sounds like TAG trending towards old man, coffee. I am in the alarmed camp. That bet invites action and surely isn't an attempt to chase Hero off his hand.

Hero take the bait and 4-bets which leads to the 5-bet jam. Hero is facing a $570 bet into a $250 pot. A 2x pot shove. < By the way, Villain gets all the chips if he can flat the 4-bet to see a flop. Hero is toast if KK flops an over-pair. >

So is there any way this villain is playing AK this way? How about QQ? Min bet followed by a 2x pot shove? By pretty tight player?

I think the never fold KK camp is well and good playing 100BB but not as much playing 200+BB. Or vs a range of bad / wild / drunk players. Vs this villain, I think it is a snap fold.

Sorry to rain on the parade -=- DrStrange

 

[Lemonzest]

I think the AK hand has more depth. Think about how often a single pair is good facing a 5x turn c/r.

Your hand is just bluff catching at this point. Perhaps up against a draw. If the villain is tight and good I probably tank for 10 secs and find a fold.

I dont know how your game plays so I could be wrong but thats my 2c.

IME live players dont bluff c/r almost ever.

 

[Perthmike]

@DrStrange with the great insight as usual.

I was one of the noobs suggesting jam, but then again now that I think about it my villains almost never have more than 100bb so my experience is different.

This is why I like these strategy threads.

 

[DrStrange]

Second hand.

Preflop is fine - the 3-bet is a bit large but what the heck if villain calls.

The flop is a marginal mistake in isolation. Could be a clear error if villain is fit/fold. Could be fine if villain plays ace-rag for $115 and stacks off on top pair ok kicker. Might have some metagame value. The pot is $230. Villain has roughly $1,000 left. SPR is just over 4. I don't hate the check nor do I love it - - - it depends. However Hero is going to be caught in his own trap on this hand. And as the card lay, hero is getting stacked almost no matter what.

The turn brings Hero a nice nut flush redraw if he is behind. The tricky trappy flop play forces Hero to call or raise. I think raise is best and the hand plays out as expected.

This loss seems unavoidable -=- DrStrange

 

[v1pe]

I don't know...it's pretty tough to get away from KK. Never ever getting away from it 100bb deep. 200bb deep, probably not either. 250+ deep, maybe? Hmm...the 3b min-raise and 5b jam is a pretty strong line. You could make an exploitable fold, but I don't think it's recommended unless you are just absolutely sure the guy only has AA. Situation sucks, but I don't know if you can get away from it.

I think a better line on the 2nd hand is to c-bet the flop 1/2 to 2/3 pot and evaluate the turn. You could pot control when the heart lands, but I would probably end up betting the turn and calling the inevitable shove with the Ah redraw.

 

[v1pe]

Yeah, I pretty much land in the same camp the good Dr. does.

 

[colter ripton]

It is generally best to put one hand is a thread by itself. . . .

AA vs KK. . . . This is so much villain dependent. And in this situation, Hero has a good villain to be facing. Vs a drunk or a LAG or someone on monkey tilt Hero is going to get stacked.

So Hero opens to $20 UTG. We don't know if that is normal. We don't know Hero's table image. I'll assume $20 is a normal 4:00 am raise and that Hero is "reasonable" for a 5 way table.

Villain basically min raises. Sometimes that does not mean much. Other times it is alarming. Villain sounds like TAG trending towards old man, coffee. I am in the alarmed camp. That bet invites action and surely isn't an attempt to chase Hero off his hand.

Hero take the bait and 4-bets which leads to the 5-bet jam. Hero is facing a $570 bet into a $250 pot. A 2x pot shove. < By the way, Villain gets all the chips if he can flat the 4-bet to see a flop. Hero is toast if KK flops an over-pair. >

So is there any way this villain is playing AK this way? How about QQ? Min bet followed by a 2x pot shove? By pretty tight player?

I think the never fold KK camp is well and good playing 100BB but not as much playing 200+BB. Or vs a range of bad / wild / drunk players. Vs this villain, I think it is a snap fold.

Sorry to rain on the parade -=- DrStrange

I agree with you, and it's why I posed the question. I don't think I have ever folded KK pre flop, but in this situation I think it should at least be considered. I think it is possible that this villian would do the same with QQ, and maybe AK suited. I think it is unlikely though.

My table image is pretty lag especially when short handed. I'm more of a tag in full games. When it gets short though I'm in a lot of pots mixing it up. When the pot get really big however I usually have a very strong hand. I feel I use this table image effectively and usually get paid off in really big pots because of it.

I'm a winning player, and have been for the past 5 years or so in the big games at my local casino. I go through losing streaks sometimes but always come out ahead in the long run.

The 2/3 game at my local casino has become the big game recently. It used to be only 2/5 and 1/3 until about 6 months ago. Most of the 2/5 players have started playing 2/3 and we rarely get a 2/5 game going. This leads to a lot of buy ins and a really big 2/3 game. The usual open is around 20 to 30 dollars in these games especially late night when the game gets short handed.

I feel like I could have possibly gotten away from the KK hand after the villan jams 200 bbs, but I don't know if it's a snap fold given my table image in the short handed game.

The 2nd hand I honestly thought that I had the best hand on the turn, and I had a redraw to the nuts. I could have bet the flop, but I don't think it would have turned out any differently. I usually bet the flop there, but wanted to make it look like I had a KK or QQ type hand. I think I kinda trapped myself. I checked the flop hoping he would think his ace was good and he would raise me on the turn. When he check raised me I thought my plan had worked, and it didn't take me long to make the decision to go all in. Maybe if I had taken more time and thought about it I could have possibly made a hero fold, but i don't know.

It's just a couple tough spots that both happened to occur within an hour of the game breaking in my last two sessions.

I feel like I have been playing pretty well latley, but I know that there is always room for improvement.

 

[BGinGA]

Solution is to cash out at 4 a.m. .... or just get plastered and auto-fold for that last hour. Seriously though, if you find yourself routinely losing all if your amassed profits during the last hour of play in a session, then stop playing earlier.... or at least stop playing big pots towards the end. You can't lose what you don't wager.

AA v KK:
Against a supernit, I'm probably just flatting the min-raise. As played, I'm folding KK to his 5-bet, as I'm putting him on the exact hand that he has.

 

[ChipEnvy]

You should stop playing at 3:30 am.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Solution is to cash out at 4 a.m. .... or just get plastered and auto-fold for that last hour. Seriously though, if you find yourself routinely losing all if your amassed profits during the last hour of play in a session, then stop playing earlier.... or at least stop playing big pots towards the end. You can't lose what you don't wager.

Preach it, brother.

Because I typically only play about once a week, I've had a tendency to play longer than I should - and inevitably that would have a negative effect on my session. It took quite a few good sessions gone bad for me to learn this lesson, pay more attention to my mental state when it's late, and leave when I'm no longer on my A game. I'm still not perfect, but a lot better than I used to be, and my results reflect that.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

It is generally best to put one hand is a thread by itself. . . .

AA vs KK. . . . This is so much villain dependent. And in this situation, Hero has a good villain to be facing. Vs a drunk or a LAG or someone on monkey tilt Hero is going to get stacked.

So Hero opens to $20 UTG. We don't know if that is normal. We don't know Hero's table image. I'll assume $20 is a normal 4:00 am raise and that Hero is "reasonable" for a 5 way table.

Villain basically min raises. Sometimes that does not mean much. Other times it is alarming. Villain sounds like TAG trending towards old man, coffee. I am in the alarmed camp. That bet invites action and surely isn't an attempt to chase Hero off his hand.

Hero take the bait and 4-bets which leads to the 5-bet jam. Hero is facing a $570 bet into a $250 pot. A 2x pot shove. < By the way, Villain gets all the chips if he can flat the 4-bet to see a flop. Hero is toast if KK flops an over-pair. >

So is there any way this villain is playing AK this way? How about QQ? Min bet followed by a 2x pot shove? By pretty tight player?

I think the never fold KK camp is well and good playing 100BB but not as much playing 200+BB. Or vs a range of bad / wild / drunk players. Vs this villain, I think it is a snap fold.

Sorry to rain on the parade -=- DrStrange

It's extremely situational and almost always wrong to fold KK preflop, but I'm with @DrStrange - this sounds like one of those situations where it might be the right thing to do.

I recall folding KK preflop twice in live cash play - in this very type of spot - and both times I was shown aces.

 

[upNdown]

Villain basically min raises. Sometimes that does not mean much. Other times it is alarming. Villain sounds like TAG trending towards old man, coffee. I am in the alarmed camp. That bet invites action and surely isn't an attempt to chase Hero off his hand.

Right. That kind of bet is very polarizing to me: either the guy doesn’t know what he’s doing, or he’s begging you to throw some more money in the pot.
You don’t have to fold KK there, but you don’t have to 4-bet either.

 

[upNdown]

Then again, I’m not even sure I have a 4-bet range, when heads up. (So if I call your 3-bet, watch out.)

 

[UKS]

Against any cash game I have ever played, I am not folding KK pre flop. If someone is in a casino, they have QQ and AK in their as much or more than AA.

I *may* not get it all in though if I am 200 BB+

UKS

 

[WedgeRock]

Late to the thread, but in OP hand, *if* he had more than $650, maybe (maybe) you can find a fold, but for $650, I don't think I am ever folding that hand. Just bad luck. And hey, 18% of the time, you hit a K!

EDIT: Good insight by @DrStrange... I don't think it's a snap fold, but it is a reasonable play.

You say it's unlikely that he has QQ or AK, but if he did he'd play it the same way. Tank-folding KK face up would be awesome. If villain mucks, it's the same result as showing AA (you may get some that doubt hebheld AA, but it's hard to argue), and if you can goad villain into showing AA, you get mad respect. And if he shows QQ/AK, you might get others who try to exploit your fold, but you're only folding KK PF to this villain in this situation, so you may actually make your fold losses back from this hand.

In the second hand, I don't like the flop check. You say you have disguised your ace and while maybe that's true, a c-bet type bet still disguises your ace and gives you more info on villain's range.

Also, I agree with @Perthmike, on the second hand, you have top pair and the flush came. Flat the turn bet, certainly no need to RRAI on a draw. You're hoping he doesn't have a made hand and folds? The no-information flop check is all the more reason to be cautious.

 

[DRacula]

I’m in the camp of never folding KK pre flop. You can argue with me all you’d like, but it’s almost universally a leak to fold pre with them in a cash game. If you are in a tournament post bubble with players all in, and you will make more money by folding and allowing a player to get knocked out, then I would consider a fold.

You’re going to run into AA and QQ/JJ more than the dominated AK (your blocking the K) so this might skew your perception of how often you see AA in this spot.

Against an OMC who has played 1 hand in 3 hours and put in the 5 bet, I might consider a fold but in reality I’m still calling.

Plus, there’s always some donators who will get in light with A10,AJ,AQ.

 

[Anthony Martino]

One of the most important things I've learned is that people aren't bluffing nearly as much as you think they are. Unless they're @Ben

 

[Jimulacrum]

In this kind of spot, it can be player-dependent. If Villain is a maniac, or Hero has a super-LAG table image and Villain is the type who gets goaded into raising wars, or there's some other compelling history that could give him a lot of different hands, then folding KK is probably a mistake. Villain's range is just too wide.

But against a tight preflop player who rarely or never gets out of line, his sequence of bets says one thing: I am so strong that I am not worried about anything except getting everything in the pot ASAP. Being 5-handed makes it a little trickier, but a tight player is a tight player. If he has AK or QQ, your 4-bet terrifies him into thinking you have AA or KK. He's constantly looking for an excuse to fold. For him to be so enthusiastic about his hand practically screams AA.

Granted, there are easier spots to fold KK (like, if, say, it were 500 BB deep, or there were multiple calls of your $125 before Villain's shove), but you have to be able to let it go sometimes, especially in a deep cash game.

Sorrynotsorry, but people in the "never fold KK" camp are flat wrong. It's only a pair of kings.

 

[DRacula]

In this kind of spot, it can be player-dependent. If Villain is a maniac, or Hero has a super-LAG table image and Villain is the type who gets goaded into raising wars, or there's some other compelling history that could give him a lot of different hands, then folding KK is probably a mistake. Villain's range is just too wide.

But against a tight preflop player who rarely or never gets out of line, his sequence of bets says one thing: I am so strong that I am not worried about anything except getting everything in the pot ASAP. Being 5-handed makes it a little trickier, but a tight player is a tight player. If he has AK or QQ, your 4-bet terrifies him into thinking you have AA or KK. He's constantly looking for an excuse to fold. For him to be so enthusiastic about his hand practically screams AA.

Granted, there are easier spots to fold KK (like, if, say, it were 500 BB deep, or there were multiple calls of your $125 before Villain's shove), but you have to be able to let it go sometimes, especially in a deep cash game.

Sorrynotsorry, but people in the "never fold KK" camp are flat wrong. It's only a pair of kings.

Lol, so I just need to 4 bet to get those KK to fold every time, why did I never think about that.

For the mathematically inclined, if you are dealt KK there is a 99.55% chance you have the best hand pre flop against a single villain.

If you are folding pre you are a nit and a weak player, you will get crushed in higher stakes where villains are opening with wider ranges and 3/4 betting light

 

[Jimulacrum]

Lol, so I just need to 4 bet to get those KK to fold every time, why did I never think about that.

Villain didn't 4-bet; he 5-bet. And moreover, if you're this type of player, you won't be pegged as "tight," which changes the picture entirely.

For the mathematically inclined, if you are dealt KK there is a 99.55% chance you have the best hand pre flop against a single villain.

P(this Villain has aces) = dramatically more than the baseline 0.45% chance of being dealt AA preflop. Don't try to throw math in people's faces if you don't truly understand how it works.

If you are folding pre you are a nit and a weak player, you will get crushed in higher stakes where villains are opening with wider ranges and 3/4 betting light

I have folded KK preflop five or six times that I can remember, twice in tournaments and the rest in cash games. Someone ended up showing AA almost every time; usually it happened in multi-way pots where it was destined to get to showdown, and one time no hand was shown. It's not something I readily do against any 4- or even 5-bet, but it's just the right play sometimes.

If I'm playing in a game where people reraise a lot wider, then obviously I won't be anywhere near as inclined to fold KK, nor should anyone. Villains' ranges will be too wide. Folding KK is almost never correct except against a very tight player.