98s from the big blind

SixSpeedFury

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Home tournament from last night, 8 players. Game was extremely loose. I have 42,000 behind, starting stacks were 20,000. Level is at 200-400. Everyone limps to me in the BB and look down at 9h8h. I make it 1,800 and try to take it down but I get two callers. One off the button and SB. Flop is 9c7h6h. SB checks. Action?
 

Mr Tree

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I'm a proponent of leading out over checking here. I think in the long run you get more pots built that way. Make it look like a c-bet though. Bet about 2500
 

Mr Tree

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Caveat being could use some more info. What are the stack sizes in the hand with us? What kind of players are they. How do they perceive us?
 

BGinGA

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Over six grand in the pot already, I'm betting 4500 with top pair and the oesfd.
 

Mr Tree

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My bad. For some reason I was thinking you had flopped the straight and was thinking the pot was smaller. Yeah I'd put some more in here.
 

MoscowRadio

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A C-Bet is definitely in order here, but I think I'm betting somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of the pot. Effective stack sizes would be very helpful here and some info on Button and SB. With 7,400 in the pot and you having about 40,000 left your SPR is around 5.4 which is pretty optimal in this spot. You have top pair with a huge draw to go with it. If I'm in your position and I get raised I'm almost certainly willing to play back for stacks. You can't be drawing dead and even against an over pair or a set you've got good equity.
 

slisk250

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Over six grand in the pot already, I'm betting 4500 with top pair and the oesfd.

This ^ You are likely in the lead with a good draw. 4500 might win it and you could get your straight...or the nuts. If the players you face are a bit tight or short stacked I'd go even stronger. Maybe match the pot.
 

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Not knowing anything about the villains, not even their stack sizes limits the value of our replies.

Hero should bet while he has two draws worth of equity. Many of Hero's outs are "obvious" and likely will kill action. I see the pot as 8 x 400 {everyone limped} + 3 x 1,400 { then two villains call hero's 1,400 raise} = 7,400. Hero can bet anything from 3,00 to all-in - my bias is bigger is better up to a point. Hero is going to stack off to a flop raise.

Pair + massive draw is a good thing -=- DrStrange
 
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I think our PF raise is too small. I'm surprised you got as many folds as you did. Heads up, top pair + FD is always in good shape. We don't want to see the turn 3 handed. We're never folding here. Villain stack sizes are relevant as are villain's tendencies. Can't size the bet without knowing more but we should definitely bet big.
 

Mr Tree

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I think our PF raise is too small. I'm surprised you got as many folds as you did. Heads up, top pair + FD is always in good shape. We don't want to see the turn 3 handed. We're never folding here. Villain stack sizes are relevant as are villain's tendencies. Can't size the bet without knowing more but we should definitely bet big.

You think a raise of 4.5 x the big blind is too small? If anything I find it to be on the large side
 

ChaosRock

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I agree as well... I've been seeing a lot more 'small ball' playing lately, both at the games I play and pros... Although as a BB raise with quite a few limpers it's not that uncommon... Now, if we were talking cash, that would be a totally different story, at least at my stakes...

You think a raise of 4.5 x the big blind is too small? If anything I find it to be on the large side
 

MoscowRadio

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I don't dislike the preflop raise. Generally I like to raise 2.5 x BB + 1BB for every limper. By the time the action has limped to the third player to act they're getting good enough odds to call with basically any two cards. Give those players bad immediate odds to get them out of the way so they don't flop two pair with their 59o.
 

DrStrange

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Given the pot is 8bb, yes I find an almost half pot bet OOP to be too small. On a bad day it starts the donkey train and most of the table calls. If Hero wants to raise and take the pot now, I think+3,500 is far better than +1,400.

I really don't like any preflop raise in this situation. Hero is OOP and playing a speculative hand. I see the small preflop raise as mostly spew - this time Hero got lucky and flopped the world. Most times Hero has middle pair no kicker, a runner runner draw or nothing. Hero needs to have solid reasons why he expects to steal a lot of pots when 98s misses for the raise to be profitable.

However, don't depend much on my thoughts. I am a cash player far more than tournament -=- DrStrange
 

Mr Tree

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The layout in the problem is confusing me. How many players limped and how much was in the pit before Hero got to take their action?
 

BGinGA

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The layout in the problem is confusing me. How many players limped and how much was in the pit before Hero got to take their action?

With 8 players and 200/400 blinds, the pot contained T3200 after everyone limped with the BB (hero) yet to act on his option. The hero raise of an extra T1400 got five limpers to fold, with two callers (cut-off and SB). T7400 in pot to see the flop.

I agree that T3000 on top (about pot-sized) would have been a much better PF raise amount. I would think one certainly doesn't want to bloat the pot with 89s OOP, but rather just take it down PF.
 
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You think a raise of 4.5 x the big blind is too small? If anything I find it to be on the large side
In the OP, the intention behind the raise is to try to take the pot down. Pot is already 8BBs and table is extremely loose. To try to take it down PF, I think we need to raise to T4000ish. If we want to build a bigger pot for when we hit, T1500-T2000 seems good to me.
 

Mr Tree

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In the OP, the intention behind the raise is to try to take the pot down. Pot is already 8BBs and table is extremely loose. To try to take it down PF, I think we need to raise to T4000ish. If we want to build a bigger pot for when we hit, T1500-T2000 seems good to me.

Yeah the wording of the OP was confusing to me. I was thinking everyone was dropping rather than folding. This is not a pot that will easily be picked up. Not a fan of a preflop raise with this holding and this many players.
 

SixSpeedFury

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A bit of more info on the players. As stated, players were extremely loose. Pocket pairs meant nothing in this game, connectors and one-gappers reigned supreme. SB is shorty, villain is monster chip leader after boating back to back in the previous two hands. I bet 4,800, villain re-raises to 8,600 and small blind calls. What's my play here? What range can I put them on?
 

Starem Down

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Hero has a gauge on the table thus far as being loose. He's lucky as many players folded he did. Hero did hit well but not out of the woods, plenty of speculative hands could warrant a call with 2/3 pot Cbet. I like to keep my bets at around 2/3 the pot, and this board still scares me. I'd go T5K-T5,500 here and tread uber carefully on the turn-river if villains stick around and I don't improve.
 

MoscowRadio

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Button and SB just called the pre-flop raise after limping and with all the chips in the middle before that their ranges could be vastly wider. As I said before, I'm willing to play for stacks against Villain and SB on this board with a low SPR. If you get it in here you don't have to make any decisions on the turn and river. My guess would be that SB has a hand like :ah::5h: and that Villain may have flopped something like two pair and could be trying to protect his hand.
 

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I think the situation is pretty clear - loose table, everyone limps to the hero in the BB. That's confirmation that it's a loose table.

It also means there's 8 x 400 already in the pot - $3200. This is already going to be a big pot; you do not have and will not have much control over the size of the pot.

I don't like the pre-flop bet. I prefer to let it go to flop without betting, and hope to flop solid, or get out cheap. If I'm going to bet to try to take it down, the bet has to be more than $1800, which is only half the pot. It doesn't matter how many BB it is; it matters how big it is relative to the pot. (Also, for reference, the raise was not 3.5xBB. The Big Blind is $400, which is what everyone already called - Hero said he made it $1800, which is a raise of $1400, 3.5 BB.)

When hero raised $1400 to make it $1800, there's now $4600 in the pot. (8 X 400, + 1400).

Remember, UTG called $400 with only $600 in the pot - calling 66%, or 2/3 of the pot. A hand that does that is also likely to call another $1400 to get at $4600. That's only calling 30%, less than 1/3 of the pot. And if UTG calls, everyone else is getting better odds than their first call, as well. The only reason they fold is because they're afraid of playing a big pot, or they're hoping others knock each other out. I agree with the others in the thread who are surprised there were so many folders - I'd have expected more than two to stay in for the flop, especially at a loose table.

Personally, I would check it, pre-flop. To take it down, I'd want to raise the pot - raise by $3200 - and I don't want to play that big with 98s.

Having made the bet - and having gotten callers - and having flopped the awesome draw - what to do?

There's now $7400 in the pot, and UTG is more likely to hold strong cards than to have hit this flop. Small blind is a bit of a mystery. We have flopped a monster draw without top pair, but we also have top pair as backup. I'd make it $7k to go, hoping to take it down this time now. AK can lay it down at this point, as can TT. But I can't let either of them hang around for free - one has plenty of overcards, and the other has me beat. I want them to give me the pot, or pay to play. I'm not going to hope for the Th or 5h to give me a straight flush... a plain straight of flush are more likely, and if the board pairs, neither is invincible.

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

Ironically, if I had checked the deal and hit this flop with 7 opponents... I'd be betting a much smaller fraction of the pot, hoping to build it up with all those callers. My pot equity is much bigger than 1/8, so money in the pot is good for me, and I'm not yet in danger of really hurting my stack.
 

Mental Nomad

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Right - SB just called 9600 cold on the flop, and took the pot to 30k or so; they're not folding, except for maybe a shove. Villain raised, but may just be trying to take control or buy a free card. A shove may fold him, too. In a cash game, they may have odds to call, but in a tourney, they may not be ready to make their stand.

And if the shove doesn't fold them, you're getting it in pretty good - I Stove it at about 50% pot equity.
 

Chippy McChiperson

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A bit of more info on the players. As stated, players were extremely loose. Pocket pairs meant nothing in this game, connectors and one-gappers reigned supreme. SB is shorty, villain is monster chip leader after boating back to back in the previous two hands. I bet 4,800, villain re-raises to 8,600 and small blind calls. What's my play here? What range can I put them on?


Jam. Who cares about their range, this is the flop you want to get it in with. What more of a flop could you ask for after bloating the pot out of position with a marginal hand?
 

DrStrange

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I agree, jam is the way to go. On a lucky night one of them will fold. On a bad night one has the nut flush draw and the other has a set (or even a better nine) and hero is drawing thin.

Go get 'em tiger -=- DrStrange
 

Ben

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Depending on the table dynamic, preflop sizing is fine IMO. Tourneys and cash are much different in this respect - 4.5x is pretty large in a tourney and I've played at many tourney tables where a 4.5x raise from the bb DOES have a shot at taking down the pot, or at worst thinning the field to 1-2 limpy, fit-fold villains which I'm also totally fine with. Even so I wouldn't always raise in this spot (depending mostly on how active I've been the last couple of orbits,) but if I had to go much bigger than 4.5x I would NEVER raise here.

On the flop I'd bet small (~2800) hoping for calls from hands like 78 and/or a raise that I could then happily shove over (and again, tourney sizing =/= cash sizing.) Oh, that happened - sweet. SHOVE.
 

SixSpeedFury

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This was exactly my thought. I shove all-in and villain snap calls instantly, SB decides to come along as well. Villain turns over 9d7c and SB turns over Ac8c. Turn Xc, river 7s for villains third boat!:mad: Loose game indeed.
 

Ben

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This was exactly my thought. I shove all-in and villain snap calls instantly, SB decides to come along as well. Villain turns over 9d7c and SB turns over Ac8c. Turn Xc, river 7s for villains third boat!:mad: Loose game indeed.

You had 50.1% equity against 2 opponents when the money went in. Can't ask for better than that really...
 
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