2nd Hand of Tournament (2 Viewers)

[grebe]

I'm not nearly good enough to fold so I make the crying call.

Opponent flips over AdKd. Flopped nut flush. My night of poker is over. Would have way too long to wait for a cash game to materialize. I go put the donkey hat on and they take my picture (tradition at this game) and head back home.

Luckily a buddy of mine texted me on my drive back to let me know he was setting up his golf simulator that night. So the night was not a total bust as I got in 27 holes of golf.

I'm normally on the nitty side and I feel I don't get nearly enough value on hands in a lot of cases. I told myself before the tourney I will be a little more aggressive in trying to get value from hands. It didn't work out this time.

I feel my biggest mistake was the small re-raise preflop and inflating the pot on a hand that was likely going to have an awkward flop to deal with. No opponent was folding for $400 more at that time. I did want to make sure it was isolated between me and the villain. The worst possible flop hit and I lost the maximum.

Anyways, I appreciate all the comments.

bad beat story, move on.

Odds of flopping a set: 8:1
Odds of flopping a flush: 118:1

Also of note, if you were to get all the money in here on the flop, you still win 35% of the time when you improve. Losing here is NOT due to poor play. I disagree with how you played, but the outcome is what it should have been.

FOLDING HERE IS A MISTAKE LONG TERM. This is not even close.

 

[ekricket]

Luckily a buddy of mine texted me on my drive back to let me know he was setting up his golf simulator that night. So the night was not a total bust as I got in 27 holes of golf.

Lol, you could have stopped by @grebe’s place, he’s not in a tournament at that time of night either.


I kid, I kid.

 

[Burke]

@grebe i think as played I find a fold to that all-in early in a tournament. You have enough information of opponents strength at that point I think. I think it’s a crying fold rather than a crying call.

I don’t think I have any more to add to the discussion - feel free to bluff me with that info when we play next

 

[upNdown]

bad beat story, move on.

Odds of flopping a set: 8:1
Odds of flopping a flush: 118:1

Also of note, if you were to get all the money in here on the flop, you still win 35% of the time when you improve. Losing here is NOT due to poor play. I disagree with how you played, but the outcome is what it should have been.

FOLDING HERE IS A MISTAKE LONG TERM. This is not even close.

I’m so torn.
I agree with you that this was just a cooler, it certainly isn’t his fault he lost this hand. But I think there are ways he could have avoided losing his stack. And one of them was that final bet/call.

I appreciate what you’re saying about “I’m not playing to see how long I can last.” But that doesn’t mean that maximizing value on every street is the right way to play every hand of every tournament. For online MTTs, sure, of course. But that is the exact opposite end of the spectrum from this single table tournament at a friend’s house.

 

[raynmanas]

Odds of flopping a set: 8:1
Odds of flopping a flush: 118:1

in comparing these odds, your are completely ignoring the fact that the suited board has already arrived.

 

[Mandos]

But that is the exact opposite end of the spectrum from this single table tournament at a friend’s house.

I too am conflicted, but I'm not sure I agree that a home tournament setting makes a better fold here. I believe OP said 26 players, so sounds like a 3 table tournament. I certainly get that he may have been able to get away from it, but that leaves him with less than 50 big blinds and probably (guessing by most home tournament structures with 3 tables) less than 20 BB in the next 40 minutes (or an hour at most). Whereas doubling up here leaves you with nearly 250 big blinds and perfectly positioned for a deep run. Which is why to me it comes down to how often you need to be right for the call to be right. Those calculations would change though depending on the structure.

 

[grebe]

in comparing these odds, your are completely ignoring the fact that the suited board has already arrived.

Well, yeah....but say we KNEW he had AK. There are 16 combos of AK and of those only 1 has us beat on the flop. Another 7 have some kind of flush draw and will call down sizable bets...the others may call hoping to get lucky....but will mostly fold. Even in the case where V has that 1 combo, we are STILL drawing live.

 

[upNdown]

I'm not sure I agree that a home tournament setting makes a better fold here. I believe OP said 26 players, so sounds like a 3 table tournament. I certainly get that he may have been able to get away from it, but that leaves him with less than 50 big blinds and probably (guessing by most home tournament structures with 3 tables) less than 20 BB in the next 40 minutes (or an hour at most). Whereas doubling up here leaves you with nearly 250 big blinds and perfectly positioned for a deep run. Which is why to me it comes down to how often you need to be right for the call to be right. Those calculations would change though depending on the structure.

I missed that 26 player thing.
But I stand by my point. When I’m driving to a tournament with friends, there’s some value in the entertainment for the evening (which is nil when you bust out second hand.)
But further, and more importantly, the way the hand played out (villain raised, called the next 3 bets, then check shoved the River) hero is always losing (unless he knows the villain is very good or very bad.). You can say 50ish bb are negligible - I personally disagree.

 

[ekricket]

You can say 50ish bb are negligible - I personally disagree.

Especially this early in the tournament. Hurts but recoverable.

 

[raynmanas]

Yes folding river would have been much better, because we have essentially zero chance of winning the hand at that point, so you might as well take some time trying to double up a smaller stack instead.

But I think the biggest mistake (among what was actually all mistakes) as played was not checking behind on the river.

 

[Mandos]

I must play with a much broader spectrum of player levels (mostly on the worse end) than other people here, but I'm definitely not crediting everyone I play against with definitely being ahead here. I wouldn't be shocked to see AA show up here for example. Not saying it should, but I've seen a LOT worse.

 

[Frogzilla]

villain’s flop range has something around 8% flush. That’s a guess because who knows what is in that pre flop range. By the river with this line it’s probably close to 20% flushes.

The biggest postflop mistake was turn/river sizing, should be setting up a reasonable river all-in. Go heavier on turn. Flop size was great. River as played, sigh call for this size I think. Now for deeper sizes, river raises are polarized and removal is so important on this board, that some nonlinear bluff catching will be appropriate…perfectly reasonable to call some overpairs with a diamond but fold top set. However this size makes TT a call IMO. Can’t fold much to a 20% raise.

 

[grebe]

I missed that 26 player thing.
But I stand by my point. When I’m driving to a tournament with friends, there’s some value in the entertainment for the evening (which is nil when you bust out second hand.)
But further, and more importantly, the way the hand played out (villain raised, called the next 3 bets, then check shoved the River) hero is always losing (unless he knows the villain is very good or very bad.). You can say 50ish bb are negligible - I personally disagree.

Ok, this is a fair point to be considered... However if you are posting hands in order to improve your play, it's probably to improve your overall play... Winning percentage....bbs per hour... Hourly rate.... Investment return... Whatever the case. I assume your "entertainment value", or how long you can keep your ass in a seat is not a concern you are trying to improve upon.

That one is easy... Just fold pre

 

[upNdown]

That one is easy... Just fold pre

No reason to be rude about it. Play every tournament hand like it's just the next hand in the big cash game of life if you want.
But in this one, you just gave away 48 big blinds (and whatever time you spent driving to and from the thing) because the math said call when you knew it was a fold.

 

[boltonguy]

TT-AA, 88, 44, AQs, ATs, KQs, KTs, QTs+, JTs, AQo, ATo, KQo, KTo, QJo

here is a range of all the hands V could have not including the flopped flushes that would call a river shove. Maybe @boltonguy could plug this in to give us an equity calculation.

If this is the range you're looking for

Here is the equity calc:

 

[Moxie Mike]

So this feels less like a 'PAHWM' post and more of a 'is there any way to avoid going broke' post. Nothing wrong with that, but it's important to identify what OP is looking to achieve by posting this.

I think there are a couple things that can be identified that HERO can benefit from. 1) Villain could have preflop bet-sizing tells. If HERO notices Villain's propensity to open large and subsequently show down big hands, this should be something HERO can adjust to in future confrontations.

Villain showed an odd pattern of waiting for the entire board to runout clean before acting offensively. Villain ran the risk of losing value on 3 different streets. The details of this hand should go into HERO's database for future encounters.

HERO line on the river was painful to read. HERO should be considering checking back the river. HERO isn't beating much that Villain will call a sizeable bet with - other than the occasional overpair and AQo. But giving a free showdown to those types of hands is preferable to what could be a rivered straight/set or the slowplayed nuts.

This kind of falls under the axiom that you can't win the tournament on this hand but you can definitely lose it. HERO didn't need to stack off on this river, especially after getting c/red. HERO used small bets on the flop and turn to possibly escape without incurring catastrophic stack damage and wound up felted.

What kind of golf simulator does your buddy have?

 

[rjbf65]

So this feels less like a 'PAHWM' post and more of a 'is there any way to avoid going broke' post. Nothing wrong with that, but it's important to identify what OP is looking to achieve by posting this.

I think there are a couple things that can be identified that HERO can benefit from. 1) Villain could have preflop bet-sizing tells. If HERO notices Villain's propensity to open large and subsequently show down big hands, this should be something HERO can adjust to in future confrontations.

Villain showed an odd pattern of waiting for the entire board to runout clean before acting offensively. Villain ran the risk of losing value on 3 different streets. The details of this hand should go into HERO's database for future encounters.

HERO line on the river was painful to read. HERO should be considering checking back the river. HERO isn't beating much that Villain will call a sizeable bet with - other than the occasional overpair and AQo. But giving a free showdown to those types of hands is preferable to what could be a rivered straight/set or the slowplayed nuts.

This kind of falls under the axiom that you can't win the tournament on this hand but you can definitely lose it. HERO didn't need to stack off on this river, especially after getting c/red. HERO used small bets on the flop and turn to possibly escape without incurring catastrophic stack damage and wound up felted.

What kind of golf simulator does your buddy have?

It’s a Garmin R10. Lots of fun. Simulator golf was a fantastic option to have after busting the tourney so fast.

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/695391

Anyways, I know I made several mistakes in the hand. It was not my normal cautious line. I wanted to play more aggressively and it didn’t work. This was the first PAHWM thread I’ve ever posted and I genuinely appreciate the responses. My goal in posting it is to learn from others and to get the thoughts of players much better than I am. I imagine I’ll be more cautious next time. This hand will be in the memory bank for a while.

 

[grebe]

If this is the range you're looking for
View attachment 856904

I messed that up a bit...a few other hands should be in there obviously, and some hands should be taken out...like all suited hands not diamonds. Nobody is buying what I am selling anyways, because more often than not these hands not "how do I improve" hands, they are "can you believe this shit!" hands.

Range post flop should look something like below....with the following caveats:
-The only suited hands left would be diamonds or with a T

-All unsuited hands with either one a diamond...the rest fold

 

[grebe]

My goal in posting it is to learn from others and to get the thoughts of players much better than I am. I imagine I’ll be more cautious next time. This hand will be in the memory bank for a while.

Dude, seriously....cautious poker is not going to make you better. Nobody gets out of this hand unscathed, it's a set up hand. A cooler if you will. It's monster v. monster.

What will make you better is if you can pick apart other hands where you could have bet bigger or fit in a check raise to win more than what you did win. You should look at the bluffs you take and the ones you didn't. Can you identify other people that play the way you used to play and take advantage of them. This is what makes people play better....finding the spots others are leaving for you and taking advantage of those spots. Getting as close to max value from your good hands. And yes, identifying when you are beat as early as possible and saving your chips.

The next hand you post up (or think thru on your own), try to make it a hand where you win the hand, but maybe you misplayed it and could have got more value if you played it a different way. Those are far more interesting and will go much further in your road to improving your overall play.

Playing cautiously is no winning strategy, it's a way to extend the inevitable.

 

[Moxie Mike]

It’s a Garmin R10. Lots of fun. Simulator golf was a fantastic option to have after busting the tourney so fast.

Cool. I've had Optishot and Skytrak but didn't get great results from either. Nice to know there's a new product on the market... I'm not familiar with the Garmin.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Dude, seriously....cautious poker is not going to make you better. Nobody gets out of this hand unscathed, it's a set up hand. A cooler if you will. It's monster v. monster.

What will make you better is if you can pick apart other hands where you could have bet bigger or fit in a check raise to win more than what you did win. You should look at the bluffs you take and the ones you didn't. Can you identify other people that play the way you used to play and take advantage of them. This is what makes people play better....finding the spots others are leaving for you and taking advantage of those spots. Getting as close to max value from your good hands. And yes, identifying when you are beat as early as possible and saving your chips.

The next hand you post up (or think thru on your own), try to make it a hand where you win the hand, but maybe you misplayed it and could have got more value if you played it a different way. Those are far more interesting and will go much further in your road to improving your overall play.

Playing cautiously is no winning strategy, it's a way to extend the inevitable.

Disagree with many of the points here. Going home broke from a tournament within 5 minutes with a hand that was beat on the flop is not inevitable. I said earlier that given the flop, this was a hand that would win a little or lose a lot, unless the board paired. Turns out it was the latter. Betting bigger earlier (post flop) would have just gotten OP busted earlier.

V's passive play made sense to me. He flopped the nuts (unless the board paired later), and had a willing participant to bloat the pot without overtly disclosing his hand. If I had bet into an OOP player three times (pre, flop and turn) and he is still hanging around, I'm seriously considering checking back the river. Definitely folding the check-raise. Yes, lost value. Yes, also still playing in the third hand.

Cash game? Different strategy. All in early, make the draws pay large, and rebuy if V flopped the nuts.

 

[raynmanas]

Disagree with many of the points here. Going home broke from a tournament within 5 minutes with a hand that was beat on the flop is not inevitable. I said earlier that given the flop, this was a hand that would win a little or lose a lot, unless the board paired. Turns out it was the latter. Betting bigger earlier (post flop) would have just gotten OP busted earlier.

V's passive play made sense to me. He flopped the nuts (unless the board paired later), and had a willing participant to bloat the pot without overtly disclosing his hand. If I had bet into an OOP player three times (pre, flop and turn) and he is still hanging around, I'm seriously considering checking back the river. Definitely folding the check-raise. Yes, lost value. Yes, also still playing in the third hand.

Cash game? Different strategy. All in early, make the draws pay large, and rebuy if V flopped the nuts.

pretty much all of this*. it feels like @grebe thinks we should play every tournament hand like a cash hand, not recognizing that in tournaments, there exists a game within the game that isn't even poker. that is actually why i have always preferred tournaments.

*except the rebuy thing - that wasn't an option here.

 

[LotsOfChips]

*except the rebuy thing - that wasn't an option here.

The rebuy comment was referring to a Cash Game. If this was a rebuy tournament, then that may also affect strategy on this particular hand as well.

 

[raynmanas]

The rebuy comment was referring to a Cash Game. If this was a rebuy tournament, then that may also affect strategy on this particular hand as well.

oh yeah, completely whiffed on that. in that case, i agree completely!

 

[Moxie Mike]

Disagree with many of the points here.

So it would seem there are two camps here. On one hand there's the 'rip it in' group, and on the other side there's plenty of people advocating that top set on a monochrome board should be played cautiously.

I think those that are in the 'small ball' camp are being results oriented. Top set is just so powerful... I'd much rather go broke on the second hand of the tournament with top set then nurse a short stack only to bubble.

Perhaps a poll is appropriate?

 

[grebe]

Yes, also still playing in the third hand.

With a whisper of a stack. I mean, if your goal is to see how many hands you can play, that's your call. I am looking to build up some chips so I can punish the weak/tight players when blinds go up. I want to be in the best position to win, not see how long I can hang out. Sometimes it doesnt work out, and I am ok with that.

pretty much all of this*. it feels like @grebe thinks we should play every tournament hand like a cash hand, not recognizing that in tournaments, there exists a game within the game that isn't even poker. that is actually why i have always preferred tournaments.

The more big blinds you have in a tournament the more like a cash game you should play. If you think I am too aggressive here, wait and see how I play when stacks get shallow.

 

[raynmanas]

On one hand there's the 'rip it in' group, and on the other side there's plenty of people advocating that top set on a monochrome board should be played cautiously.

I don't think it is that simple. My action suggestions on this hand were based on "as it was played" so far. So while I disagree with literally all of the decisions up to the river, based on how the hand *was* played, it was a check-behind, and then failing that and facing the re-raise all-in, it was a fold.

At every other prior decision in the hand, I would have played much more aggressively.

 

[raynmanas]

The more big blinds you have in a tournament the more like a cash game you should play.

Of course I agree with that. I am referring specifically here to your opposition to both the check behind and the fold on the river. Regardless of how he got himself there, those were the better options at those points.

 

[upNdown]

With a whisper of a stack.

Again, 48 bigs isn’t what I’d call a whisper.

I'd much rather go broke on the second hand of the tournament with top set then nurse a short stack only to bubble.

Me too. Fortunately those aren’t the only two options. (And FWIW, you’ve played enough tournaments with me to see me grind back from far less that 48 bigs, quite often.)

 

[chkyrslf]

For the next one, @warma has done a nice guidance thread on making these hand posts read easier and using the cards emojis.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/how-to-crush-that-strategy-thread.85546/

Thanks for sharing