$1/3 Hold’em cash game with nut flush draw (1 Viewer)

[Rhodeman77]

This was probably the most interesting hand from the short session I played yesterday. We will be playing along with the nut flush draw player as I think his decisions were the more interesting ones to be made.

Table is over all tight passive. In the first three orbits there were at least 6 times the blinds just chopped. We didn’t see a single showdown in that time either. A few people have been straddling and even that is only getting calls and checking. Most of the there are several limps and whoever hits middle pair or better bets the flop and everyone folds.

This hand started with a rare raise to $10 from early position and most of the table calls.

Action is to Hero who looks down at in the BB and makes the call.

6 people to the flop $60 in the pot minus rake.
Flop is

Hero is first to act. With a stack a little over $200.

Rest of the table covers, most with about $300.

 

[Beakertwang]

Hero in the BB?

 

[Rhodeman77]

Hero in the BB?

Yes, fixed OP to show that now. I knew I forgot something

 

[JoeBGo]

Check and then call depending on action back to hero?

 

[Beakertwang]

If it's a tight passive table, I check-call most reasonable bets.

 

[RocAFella1]

Check raise depending on action behind?

 

[Coyote]

Isn't it at least one AA or AK early raiser villain against the Hero (in this particular game, that is)?
AA a little more probable in this setting, I hate to say. 7 and then 10 outs for the villain to improve his top set to full house or better.
Hero has 9 outs to the nut flush, useless if the above happens.
You tell me.

 

[DrStrange]

I think Hero should check his options and let the original raiser set the pace. At this point all of Hero's options are open - check/raise, check/call and check/fold.

 

[Changster]

Check 100% of hero’s range on the flop.

We don’t even know what happens after so there’s no point to say cc or cr. It’s not heads up. What if action behind is bet, raise, 3 bet all in then to hero?

 

[Rhodeman77]

Not being the preflop raiser it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to bet into the field here so Hero checks.

The rest of the table also checks.

Turn is pretty damn good for Hero.

Board is now Pot is still $60 minus the rake.

Action is on Hero with the nut flush do we check or bet, if betting, how much?

 

[Changster]

Let me guess, hero bets and gets raised by one of the pre flop callers.

 

[Trihonda]

Let me guess, hero bets and gets raised by one of the pre flop callers.

And they turn over after all the money goes in...

 

[DrStrange]

Hero must bet. Yes, the field might fold but they were likely folding on the river anyway. Hero shouldn't be discouraged by folds.

Hero has ~$200 left and a $60 pot. All-in is plausible though not so likely. Even so, I advocate a $50 bet planning a $150 river shove on a safe river. Hero is obviously going broke vs the steel wheel. I do not fear a paired board on the river. Could be a full house, but I have to wonder why everyone checked after the original raiser did. I guess the preflop aggressor might have slow played top set though . . . . The or on the river would suck.

No feeble value bets here. hero should bet like he means it.

 

[Changster]

And they turn over after all the money goes in...

Or Hero bets, gets called by one preflop caller, and another preflop caller also calls.

After all the money goes it, it’s Nut flush vs straight flush vs quads.

 

[DrStrange]

When you run over a dead animal in the road it only gets flatter.

Once the steel wheel is in play, I would be praying for rivered quads and a table share of the bad beat jackpot. That is Hero's only hope with his drawing dead "nut flush"

 

[Rhodeman77]

So our Hero continues with his very very timid play and checks yet again. It checks to the Button who bets $40.

The button has been the most active player at the table and most talkative. Button also stacked our Hero an orbit earlier when his top two pair turned top full house to beat bottom set that made a worse full house.

Action is back on Hero facing a $40 bet. Pot is now $100.

What does Hero do? Call, or raise?

 

[JoeBGo]

With only $200 behind I’m jamming and praying for a non paired board. With $400 behind I’m probably making it $150 to go and jamming a non paired board river.

 

[JustinInMN]

Table is over all tight passive. In the first three orbits there were at least 6 times the blinds just chopped.

Ghandi is a LAG compared to this.

Okay catching up. Call is fine pre. I like checking here,. this is a protected pot 6 ways so no fold equity takes a lot of value out of the semi bluff.

I think there is something to be said for this.

Check 100% of hero’s range on the flop.

So hard to gain by betting in a huge pot this seems logical.

I would like a little bet on the turn to induce a shove from a smaller flush or a bluff.

Yeah the bet could go uncalled, but then it was unlikey to be any value on most rivets anyway.

As played I think we have to shove after the bet of 40. Hope villian has a flush and paus off.

 

[v1pe]

So our Hero continues with his very very timid play and checks yet again. It checks to the Button who bets $40.

The button has been the most active player at the table and most talkative. Button also stacked our Hero an orbit earlier when his top two pair turned top full house to beat bottom set that made a worse full house.

Action is back on Hero facing a $40 bet. Pot is now $100.

What does Hero do? Call, or raise?

So we've established that you are BTN in this hand?

Raising now. Click it back for small, $80 - $100 to prepare to shove river.

 

[DrStrange]

Once Hero calls $40 he has $160 left vs a pot of $140. No need to jam for protection - hero is stacking off if the river kills his current nut hand. Let's bet $80 now and "same bet" on any river.

 

[JustinInMN]

Once Hero calls $40 he has $160 left vs a pot of $140. No need to jam for protection - hero is stacking off if the river kills his current nut hand. Let's bet $80 now and "same bet" on any river.

I don't think the check raise all in is for protection, but because the odds of playing for stacks is better on the turn than on the river.

Namely, as hero, I would be trying to hope the button is betting a non-nut flush here and will have to pay off. If the river brings a spade or pairs the board, button might have a chance to fold a small flush.

Button may also be playing a set here and will have to call the turn. Though in that case board paring is bad, but he may still find a fold if the fourth spade hits.

In a six way pot it is so unlikely button is on air here. But maybe he is going to fold to the raise. But if he folds to a turn raise, he's probably folding more often on the river.

Not to mention what could button really bet again on the river? Small flushes unless a scare card hits. And even some of those Button may check behind after hero calls the turn.

Bottom line, hero should be looking for a way to play for stacks, inducing the bet on the turn seems to provide that opportunity better than call-donkshove or call, then check-hoping villian shoves for us.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Conclusion:

Hero is sticking to his passive ways and only calls. Perhaps he thought someone might make an over call? If so he is a bigger fool than I thought because none of these guys are checking twice to call now. The rest of the table folds.

River is the .

Making the final board:
With $140 or so in the pot.

Our Hero finally decides it time to bet his hand and shoves ALL-IN for $140ish.

Button checks his cards real quick and says call and rolls over the straight flush.

Hero calls it a day after being busted twice in 2 orbits.

After the hand the several of the other player (all regulars that know each other and Hero) were saying what a cooler it was and he played the hand right, that there was nothing he could have done to avoid that. And I am like WTF are you idiots talking about to myself.

I had the same exact thought process as @JustinInMN if Hero had bet or raised the turn I (yes I was the Button) would never have called and he wins the pot. But he needs to raise for value!!!

If I had made a smaller flush like the Q,J, or even 10 high on the turn he needs to get me to put the money in then before a scare card like a 4th spade comes or the board pairs. And if I had a set I’d have called a raise on the turn but would fold for sure on the river so he would again lose out on the extra value he would have gotten by raising the turn.

Hero should never have lost this pot.

Thankfully shortly after this hand the PLO game got started and I was able to get out off this nit fest table.

 

[JustinInMN]

Avoiding the one out that could cost the pot is a minor consideration. As I said above, this was not for protection but because the turn is the best opportunity to get value. (And frankly, I prefer the lead.)

 

[shorticus]

I'm late to the party, but I think our Hero played the hand correctly until the turn. Personally, I think the proper play was to check raise there. Just my 2 cents.

 

[kirchhausen]

The only problem I have with how you played your hand is maybe the river. Jamming there folds away all of the bluffs, his calling range is either exactly 3x (how else does have have the or MAYBE or . I think even those are unlikely as a LAG like this guy would have bet the 2nd nut flush draw on the flop from the button.

Pre flop, flop and turn are all fine. Let him hang himself.