$1/3 hand Against an Action Fish Calling Station (2 Viewers)

[ngmcs8203]

Playing $1/3 and I am 90 minutes into my session. UTG has already bought in for the max 4 times 133BB. He donks a flop whenever he gets a piece of it (either a pair or draw), even wider when it's a multiway pot. Action fish calling station (TM) I have him covered. Effective stack is $350.

UTG (AFCS), UTG+1, HJ all limp. Hero in the CO with AJdd, raises to $20. SB cold calls and UTG flats.

Flop: KsJs9c ($63)

SB checks. AFCS bets $20. Hero call and SB folds.

Turn: 6s ($103)

AFCS checks. Hero checks.

River: Tc

AFCS checks. Hero checks.

I feel like I missed a few opportunities for value. The flop could have been a good opportunity to raise him. Maybe get him off of a draw or marginal hand.

The river seems like another opportunity for thin value.

How would you have played it?

 

[RagingAZN]

Have you got any reads for his later street action?
I think at $1/$3 you don’t need to worry about thin value and just play ABC poker. If he’s as bad as you make him out to be, there will be much better spots to value him. Spades get there, straight gets there and you don’t even have top pair.

If he “donks a flop whenever he gets a piece of it (either a pair or draw),” you can’t beat much with this runout.

Also you can’t check raise him on the flop right?

I would just wait for a better spot to value bet him three streets.

 

[TheJestyr]

I’d have done the same preflop and on the flop. Their check on turn makes me want to fire out a little, I’d probably throw $60 at it. Based on the description, I feel like if they had the flush already, or even two pair, they’d fire. So you’re only real fear here is top pair, which I’m ok taking my chances. I don’t consider this “thin value” as much as “regular value, plus make them pay for draws”…River 10 is less than ideal and I’m sure I chicken out at this point and check back (or worse yet, fold to any decent river bets)

Going a little deeper here: I agree with @RagingAZN that in general you should play ABC poker at lower stakes. But to me, the turn bet still falls in line with ABC poker given the way I see the hand. (I also admit I tend to fall a bit more on the aggressive side)

Lastly, even if I end up just handing AFCS more chips, I know they’re not going to lock them up, so I don’t mind giving them action, letting them win one, and finding another spot later against them.

 

[Kentucky]

We have the definition of a medium strength hand on the flop and it only gets worse from there. I think we need more or less of the board to make that flop raise. At that point we are in the middle seat and need to consider that the SB might have a monster. I know you said UTG’s a calling station but really, what does he continue with on the turn or river that you beat? lol - we loose to so many logical UTG hands in the end (AK, AQ, AJ (chop), Kx, Qx, KJ, QJ, JT, J9) what did he even have a low pocket pair? Maybe 22-88 makes most sense for a limp call from UTG. You can’t even make like you’re bluffing to get a crying call from AT/A9 - everything got there.

I think I would’ve played it the same.

Seriously, what did he have?

 

[DrStrange]

More can be learned from a card-by-card discussion. In future strategy threads, perhaps there would be value in discussion at each decision point. Once we have the spoilers, most of us get blinders about how the hand should be played.

DrStrange

 

[Jimulacrum]

Just flatting on the flop makes sense. He's a calling station. You're not getting him off of draws and don't really want him folding marginal hands except maybe weak kings (which he's not folding).

Checking back the turn makes sense too, since the calling station bet last time and a flush just came in. Give him an opportunity to check to you a second time to ensure that he didn't hit the flush.

Once he checks the river, a small value bet is appropriate. The board looks very threatening, so don't expect to make much here, but you have the best hand if he doesn't have the flush, which seems to be the case. Maybe you'll get lucky and he caught two pair or some other marginal hand he'll pay off with.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Have you got any reads for his later street action?
I think at $1/$3 you don’t need to worry about thin value and just play ABC poker. If he’s as bad as you make him out to be, there will be much better spots to value him. Spades get there, straight gets there and you don’t even have top pair.

If he “donks a flop whenever he gets a piece of it (either a pair or draw),” you can’t beat much with this runout.

Also you can’t check raise him on the flop right?

I would just wait for a better spot to value bet him three streets.

He calls down light (called down with bottom pair that turned into fourth pair a couple of times) and is a habitual same better with marginal hands. You're right about not being able to check raise. Meant just raise.

 

[ngmcs8203]

More can be learned from a card-by-card discussion. In future strategy threads, perhaps there would be value in discussion at each decision point. Once we have the spoilers, most of us get blinders about how the hand should be played.

DrStrange

This was one of those hands where you learn something about the player and exploit it later. I will post the big hand in a bit.

 

[ngmcs8203]

We have the definition of a medium strength hand on the flop and it only gets worse from there. I think we need more or less of the board to make that flop raise. At that point we are in the middle seat and need to consider that the SB might have a monster. I know you said UTG’s a calling station but really, what does he continue with on the turn or river that you beat? lol - we loose to so many logical UTG hands in the end (AK, AQ, AJ (chop), Kx, Qx, KJ, QJ, JT, J9) what did he even have a low pocket pair? Maybe 22-88 makes most sense for a limp call from UTG. You can’t even make like you’re bluffing to get a crying call from AT/A9 - everything got there.

I think I would’ve played it the same.

Seriously, what did he have?

After checking back, I flip over my hand and he meekly looks at the board and then flashes a 9 before mucking.

A few hands later, same player gets into a hand with my seat neighbor (SN).

SN is UTG and opens to $15 (our side of the table's standard open) and he gets 4 callers including AFCS is in the BB. Eff stack $280

Flop: Kc8c5d ($70)

AFCS donks for $35, SN calls.

Turn: Kc8c5d 2h ($140)

AFCS same bets for $35 (SN and I were talking about AFCS' propensity for same betting with marginal hands just a few minutes earlier). SN jams for AFCS remaining chips. AFCS hems and haws and ultimately folds flashing KQo. SN flips over 67cc. By the time we get to my last hand of the night, AFCS is in for 6 buy-ins.

------

Eff stack $450

UTG opens to $10, AFCS and 3 more flat. Hero 3-bets to $65 in SB with AsQh (this should have been $80 but oh well). AFCS calls.

Flop Qs6d4s ($165) two spades.

Hero checks, AF $50. Hero pauses and raises to $135. AFCS calls.

Turn is a 5s ($165)

H checks, AF $50. Hero snap-raises all-in. After having a conversation about how often my side of the table raises, AFCS calls.

River 3c

AFCS shows 6s before mucking. My guess is he had something like Ax6s and thought he was somehow good. He ended up re-buying as our table was breaking and found a seat at another table.

 

[Eriks]

I’d play it the same on that runout. If $15 is the table’s standard open, I’d make it more than $20 pre following 3 limps though.

 

[ngmcs8203]

I’d play it the same on that runout. If $15 is the table’s standard open, I’d make it more than $20 pre following 3 limps though.

Our side of the table it’s $15. The opposite side was opening to $10.

 

[upNdown]

UTG has already bought in for the max 4 times 133BB

I wonder how much this matters? I assume this is a home game rule, and he’s gonna have to go home next time he gets felted? So I guess his history matters here? If you know he doesn’t mind going home 90 minute into the session, proceed as you would. But if you know he’d rather stay and play, then don’t you have to respect all his money a little more than you normally would?

All that said, yeah I think a river value bet would have been reasonable.

 

[ngmcs8203]

I wonder how much this matters? I assume this is a home game rule, and he’s gonna have to go home next time he gets felted? So I guess his history matters here? If you know he doesn’t mind going home 90 minute into the session, proceed as you would. But if you know he’d rather stay and play, then don’t you have to respect all his money a little more than you normally would?

All that said, yeah I think a river value bet would have been reasonable.

Nah this is in a casino. He has bought in for the max/cap 4 times. So $400 each time.

 

[ChipMonster]

I probably would’ve played about the same. He’s a calling station but does he ever throw out bets/obvious bluffs beyond what he just did for flop bet and continue to fire? That would be the factor if I tried to throw out a little bet on either turn or river but I’d be inclined to just check it down since quite a few hands have you beat. If you threw out a bet on turn and river, is he one to check-raise? If so, would you have called? That’s why I’d just lean towards checking as well. You already got your value out of him by him being in the hand in the first place and calling your opening bet.

 

[ngmcs8203]

I probably would’ve played about the same. He’s a calling station but does he ever throw out bets/obvious bluffs beyond what he just did for flop bet and continue to fire? That would be the factor if I tried to throw out a little bet on either turn or river but I’d be inclined to just check it down since quite a few hands have you beat. If you threw out a bet on turn and river, is he one to check-raise? If so, would you have called? That’s why I’d just lean towards checking as well. You already got your value out of him by him being in the hand in the first place and calling your opening bet.

I hadn’t seen him check raise a single hand so that’s why I was leaning towards betting or raising at different points. I saw him donk bet with a back door flush draw and no pair and then continue with a slightly larger bet when he picked up more equity on the turn. Check the river when he missed on the river.

 

[upNdown]

Bart Hanson has a good podcast on YouTube called crushlivepoker where he’ll go over a low stakes (most often 2/5 or 1/3 or 5/10) live cash hand with a caller.
Two recurring themes, especially at the 1/3 level, is how few big river bluffs you see at these stakes, and how important value betting the river is at these stakes.
Here’s the latest episode (though I haven’t listened yet)

 

[ngmcs8203]

Bart Hanson has a good podcast on YouTube called crushlivepoker where he’ll go over a low stakes (most often 2/5 or 1/3 or 5/10) live cash hand with a caller.
Two recurring themes, especially at the 1/3 level, is how few big river bluffs you see at these stakes, and how important value betting the river is at these stakes.
Here’s the latest episode (though I haven’t listened yet)

Yup I love CLP so much that I pay a fee for it!

 

[JustinInMN]

Playing $1/3 and I am 90 minutes into my session. UTG has already bought in for the max 4 times 133BB. He donks a flop whenever he gets a piece of it (either a pair or draw), even wider when it's a multiway pot. Action fish calling station (TM) I have him covered. Effective stack is $350.

UTG (AFCS), UTG+1, HJ all limp. Hero in the CO with AJdd, raises to $20. SB cold calls and UTG flats.

Flop: KsJs9c ($63)

SB checks. AFCS bets $20. Hero call and SB folds.

Turn: 6s ($103)

AFCS checks. Hero checks.

River: Tc

AFCS checks. Hero checks.

I feel like I missed a few opportunities for value. The flop could have been a good opportunity to raise him. Maybe get him off of a draw or marginal hand.

The river seems like another opportunity for thin value.

How would you have played it?

Preflop, I probably prefer the raise as you did here, and like this sizing if you choose to raise. I don't mind a flat too much either though if you want to take a small ball approach in a multi-way pot, and making for easy folds on misses, which will be frequent. But that's just a tangent, I like the raise fine and getting this down to 3-handed with a raise is a pretty good result.

(Edit, I misread the flop action. My opinion on that street is invalid. Fine with just a call there.)

As for the turn, I would probably bet the turn after the green light, as I wouldn't want to offer a free pull to any single-spade hands AFCS would hold. I am guessing AFCS is probably not checking a flush either unless it's the nuts.

I think checking the river behind, however, makes sense if my assumption that gutshots might be in his range. However, if villain has the Q, it would probably have to be a weak Qx holding, such as Q8, Q7. (I doubt hero would limp AQ pre, and would probably bet the flop with the Qx hands containing that pair the flop.) The possible hands I could see villain having from which hero could get value would be specifically T8 or T7, straight draws that became 3rd Pair. (Though technically, both of those hands are 2-way straight draws on this flop, T8 being open-ended and T7 being a double-gutter.)

So I guess as hero we balance the likelyhood of being called by T8 and T7 versus the probability of being raised by Q8 or Q7. So, I think I would lean check behind here. Even if the possibilities are pretty even, I think as hero, we lose more by betting and facing a raise than winning from calls from T8 and T7.

So over all, I like 3 streets of decisions here. I would probably have bet the turn though if I wasn't at all worried about spades or Kx.

 

[Dbxela]

Maybe there are some action-fish you can raise flop - if he'll call a raise with all 9s and draws, moreso if he'd do something different with most kings like 3B pre or try to CR flop. Otherwise I think its fine.