Stud, Stud 8, and Razz basics (4 Viewers)

Beakertwang

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My only experience playing any stud games is in the P* tourneys. I understand the basic structure, but have not a shred of simple starting or betting strategy in any of these games. So...

Let's discuss! Thanks!

@Moxie Mike
 
The average age of a razz player is.....Dead.

There is probably scads of info on this on the twoplustwo poker forums. Since you could write a book on any of these 3 games I would start there, and come back here with specific questions.
 
My only experience playing any stud games is in the P* tourneys. I understand the basic structure, but have not a shred of simple starting or betting strategy in any of these games. So...

Let's discuss! Thanks!

@Moxie Mike

Basically your starting hand requirements should be more disciplined than in flop games, since you're dealing with 3 cards instead of 2. Similar to Omaha, two really strong cards can justify playing a hand with a dangler... like a wired big pair with a useless 4 for example, or A-2-10 in Razz. But 3 card starting hands that are well coordinated are the premiums... 3 to a straight, 3 suited, big pair with a strong kicker, etc.

Pay attention to dead cards. They're a reliable predictor of your immediate pot odds. Knowing that your flush outs are live or dead will help you make better decisions on later streets. They will also help you determine how live your opponents are drawing.

As to basic strategy, betting patterns combined with certain door & 4th st cards can tell you a lot. For example, say a player with a 10 showing in stud pairs his door card on 4th street, then doesn't bet when he has first option. That will tell you he probably 1) doesn't have a wired pair in the hole; 2) doesn't have trips and 3) fears bigger pairs. Chances are the first 10 is somehow coordinated with his down cards and the pair didn't excite him much.

Same with razz... if a player with an ace showing catches a 3 on 4th st and doesn't bet, chances are that 3 paired them up.

Super System 2 has a nice section of stud games... check it out if you get a chance. But the basic advice is quality starting hand selection, attention to dead cards watch betting patterns for tells.
 
Razz - Sklansky on Poker
Stud - Super System 1, 2+2 book Seven Card Stud
Stud 8 - Super System 2, 2+2 book Split pot poker (stud and Omaha)

If you want literature, start there. The 2+2 stud forums are full of helpful people, but there isn't much action.
 
I'm a very strong stud player with a lot of experience playing all three of these games professionally for most of my adult life. Stud hi and Stud hi-lo are extremely complex games, much more so than NL Holdem. How you should play each game is extremely dependent on the ante structure with respect to the limits. It's all about stealing correctly on 3rd street in Razz and Stud Hi, and that dictates how everyone else plays as well. Structures that offer 1.5 to 1 or lower on a steal attempt should and often do play very tight on 3rd street. However, structures that offer 2 to 1 or higher on a steal attempt play extremely loose. Those subtle differences are monumental in how you should approach the game. As an example, in the tighter game with lower payoff, you won't want to steal with a hand like (T4)Q in mid position with an Ace behind you, and you won't want to 3bet a hand like (Q7)Q with an Ace or King behind you after someone opens with a Ten, but in the looser, more rewarding ante structure, it is imperative that you raise and 3bet in both of these spots respectively. This has an avalanche effect on how the entire table plays, or at least should. It builds bigger pots, offering better odds to draw at, and increases your variance quite a bit. The best part about Stud games is that there are 3 large betting streets, whereas limit holdem and omaha8 each have 2. This means mistakes are much more costly, and value bets are much more important. I have dozens of poker videos where I play mixed games online that I can send you if you are interested in watching them. But it's pretty difficult to walk someone through what it takes to be a good Stud player on a keyboard. They are extremely complex games.

In Razz, 3rd street is all about how many low cards (8 or lower) are out and how many are behind you and what the structure is. If you have any card 8 or lower face up with only one low card left to act behind you, it is imperative that you raise even if you have KK down. If you have 3 low cards or even a hand like (29)6 and you are the last low card and someone has raised ahead of you who is in steal position (they only have one low card behind them) then you must reraise any good hand unless they are super tight and never steal. If you are in early position with multiple low cards behind you, you can limp or raise any strong hand, occasionally limp reraising. One of the biggest mistakes I see amateurs making is playing hands like (J2)A, (K3)A, (A2)2, etc when there are 3 or more low cards behind them still to act. You will get destroyed if you play 2 card Razz hands from a non-steal position. Also, if you are the bring-in, NEVER defend with a brick in the door (J,Q,K as your upcard). Something that is interesting about Razz is that unlike holdem where defending your blind becomes more attractive as more players enter the pot, the opposite is true in Razz. It is a mistake to defend your bring-in against a steal attempt but it is an even bigger mistake to defend your bring in when there is a raise and a caller despite the fact that you are getting better pot odds. Razz is a very close game odds wise. The better hand is rarely that far ahead, and so raising with thin edges and putting in squeeze play raises even when you know you're in 2nd place in a 3-way pot becomes critical. You don't want to get caught between a squeeze, and your odds of outdrawing two players is much more difficult than the pot odds on offer allow you to overcome. As a general rule of thumb, you only want to play when you have 3 cards 8 or lower to start with, and you usually don't want to raise if your 8 is face up. But that also depends on the dead cards. If you have a hand like (84)6 and you are first to act and behind you are a 2, 3, A, A, J, Q, and a 5, you should just muck it because it's not that strong. But if you have that same (84)6 in a different hand where everyone folds to the player on your right who raises with a 5 in the door and you look to your left and see a 3, T, and the K bring in, you should 3-bet that (84)6 a fair percentage of the time. Also, your hands are stronger when your pair cards are dead - e.g., if you have (56)3 and the cards behind you are A, 3, 5, 5, J, 6, K, you should be prepared to go to war with this hand. I would cap this hand every time on 3rd street if the Ace wanted to get into a raising war. On 4th street, you want to give up if you catch a brick while your opponent catches good unless it was double bet on 3rd street, in which case you can't ever fold on 4th unless you are at least 2 cards behind - fold maybe 875K vs someone who 3bet with (xx)35 on third street, but don't fold 635K in this spot if it was 3bet on 3rd. On 5th street, you can generally call if you are one card behind but not two. These tips will get you started, but 5th, 6th, and 7th street decisions are pretty nuanced and important, as well as costly when misplayed, so you really need a lot more studying if you want to play this game well.

In Stud hi-lo, you can do alright just by playing tight. Never play a card with a dangler in it like A29 even if the A is in the door. Stealing is less important in this game, although you still need to do it occasionally, but playing A29 or A2K is a great way to pay for someone else's new pair of shoes. You want to play hands that coordinate together and that give you a chance at BOTH the high and the low. This can be super strong high hands like QQQ, hoping no one makes a low, or it can be hands like 4d5d6d, As5s7s, AA2s, etc. You pretty much never want to play big pairs in this game (hands like 3KK), expect for a few steal situations. If you see someone raise from early or middle position with a 9 or T in the door, they are either rolled up, have AA down, or are a terrible player. Those are the only options. Don't be that guy. Basically look for three low cards that also have high potential, and avoid tricky spots and you'll do alright. Mastering the game takes a ton of experience though, and again, there is much to learn about how to play the later streets. Look for jelly roll situations (where you have a lock on half the pot and are drawing live to the other half) and get as much money in as possible when you have it. Semi-bluff raise your strong two-way draws when there are 3 or more players in the pot and one of them are clearly going for the high. Put high only hands in tough spots when you have the low. You want them to fold so that you can take it down with a pair of 4s for the high when you are going for the low.
 
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I'm a very strong stud player with a lot of experience playing all three of these games professionally for most of my adult life. Stud hi and Stud hi-lo are extremely complex games, much more so than NL Holdem. How you should play each game is extremely dependent on the ante structure with respect to the limits. It's all about stealing correctly on 3rd street in Razz and Stud Hi, and that dictates how everyone else plays as well. Structures that offer 1.5 to 1 or lower on a steal attempt should and often do play very tight on 3rd street. However, structures that offer 2 to 1 or higher on a steal attempt play extremely loose. Those subtle differences are monumental in how you should approach the game. As an example, in the tighter game with lower payoff, you won't want to steal with a hand like (T4)Q in mid position with an Ace behind you, and you won't want to 3bet a hand like (Q7)Q with an Ace or King behind you after someone opens with a Ten, but in the looser, more rewarding ante structure, it is imperative that you raise and 3bet in both of these spots respectively. This has an avalanche effect on how the entire table plays, or at least should. It builds bigger pots, offering better odds to draw at, and increases your variance quite a bit. The best part about Stud games is that there are 3 large betting streets, whereas limit holdem and omaha8 each have 2. This means mistakes are much more costly, and value bets are much more important. I have dozens of poker videos where I play mixed games online that I can send you if you are interested in watching them. But it's pretty difficult to walk someone through what it takes to be a good Stud player on a keyboard. They are extremely complex games.

In Razz, 3rd street is all about how many low cards (8 or lower) are out and how many are behind you and what the structure is. If you have any card 8 or lower face up with only one low card left to act behind you, it is imperative that you raise even if you have KK down. If you have 3 low cards or even a hand like (29)6 and you are the last low card and someone has raised ahead of you who is in steal position (they only have one low card behind them) then you must reraise any good hand unless they are super tight and never steal. If you are in early position with multiple low cards behind you, you can limp or raise any strong hand, occasionally limp reraising. One of the biggest mistakes I see amateurs making is playing hands like (J2)A, (K3)A, (A2)2, etc when there are 3 or more low cards behind them still to act. You will get destroyed if you play 2 card Razz hands from a non-steal position. Also, if you are the bring-in, NEVER defend with a brick in the door (J,Q,K as your upcard). Something that is interesting about Razz is that unlike holdem where defending your blind becomes more attractive as more players enter the pot, the opposite is true in Razz. It is a mistake to defend your bring-in against a steal attempt but it is an even bigger mistake to defend your bring in when there is a raise and a caller despite the fact that you are getting better pot odds. Razz is a very close game odds wise. The better hand is rarely that far ahead, and so raising with thin edges and putting in squeeze play raises even when you know you're in 2nd place in a 3-way pot becomes critical. You don't want to get caught between a squeeze, and your odds of outdrawing two players is much more difficult than the pot odds on offer allow you to overcome. As a general rule of thumb, you only want to play when you have 3 cards 8 or lower to start with, and you usually don't want to raise if your 8 is face up. But that also depends on the dead cards. If you have a hand like (84)6 and you are first to act and behind you are a 2, 3, A, A, J, Q, and a 5, you should just muck it because it's not that strong. But if you have that same (84)6 in a different hand where everyone folds to the player on your right who raises with a 5 in the door and you look to your left and see a 3, T, and the K bring in, you should 3-bet that (84)6 a fair percentage of the time. Also, your hands are stronger when your pair cards are dead - e.g., if you have (56)3 and the cards behind you are A, 3, 5, 5, J, 6, K, you should be prepared to go to war with this hand. I would cap this hand every time on 3rd street if the Ace wanted to get into a raising war. On 4th street, you want to give up if you catch a brick while your opponent catches good unless it was double bet on 3rd street, in which case you can't ever fold on 4th unless you are at least 2 cards behind - fold maybe 875K vs someone who 3bet with (xx)35 on third street, but don't fold 635K in this spot if it was 3bet on 3rd. On 5th street, you can generally call if you are one card behind but not two. These tips will get you started, but 5th, 6th, and 7th street decisions are pretty nuanced and important, as well as costly when misplayed, so you really need a lot more studying if you want to play this game well.

In Stud hi-lo, you can do alright just by playing tight. Never play a card with a dangler in it like A29 even if the A is in the door. Stealing is less important in this game, although you still need to do it occasionally, but playing A29 or A2K is a great way to pay for someone else's new pair of shoes. You want to play hands that coordinate together and that give you a chance at BOTH the high and the low. This can be super strong high hands like QQQ, hoping no one makes a low, or it can be hands like 4d5d6d, As5s7s, AA2s, etc. You pretty much never want to play big pairs in this game (hands like 3KK), expect for a few steal situations. If you see someone raise from early or middle position with a 9 or T in the door, they are either rolled up or a terrible player. Those are the only two options. Don't be that guy. Basically look for three low cards that also have high potential, and avoid tricky spots and you'll do alright. Mastering the game takes a ton of experience though, and again, there is much to learn about how to play the later streets. Look for jelly roll situations (where you have a lock on half the pot and are drawing live to the other half) and get as much money in as possible when you have it. Semi-bluff raise your strong two-way draws when there are 3 or more players in the pot and one of them are clearly going for the high. Put high only hands in tough spots when you have the low. You want them to fold so that you can take it down with a pair of 4s for the high when you are going for the low.

Haven't you said once that you made some strategy video? Are they still available?
 
I thought there was a two-step strategy to stud games.
Step 1. Stay
Step 2. Pray
At least that seems to be how many people play (poorly).

My introduction to 7-card stud was through a little book by George Percy called "7 Card Stud: The Waiting Game". It is much simpler than Sklansky & Malmuth's treatment, but I think it is a good place to start.

Copies are available on Amazon, although I am pretty sure George has passed.
 
Haven't you said once that you made some strategy video? Are they still available?

Ya, I believe most of them are still posted on pokerstrategy.com. I'm not sure what happened to my old videos that CardRunners owns the rights to though. I probably have close to 100 videos combined on a hard drive somewhere. But here are a few private links to a few of them that I put on YouTube. These are not publicly searchable because I posted them private as they are still hosted on pokerstrategy.com, but I own the rights to them, so I made a few of these available for friends that wanted to watch them.

These videos are from the first two HORSE tournaments I ever played, so I'm sure I made some stupid mistakes, but I ended up winning both of them somehow. They were the weekly Sunday Night HORSE events on Full Tilt Poker from back in 2006, which were $200 buy-ins that usually had about 100 player fields in them. There were a lot of really strong players playing these events back in the day. A lot of bracelet winners played these every week. I won it back to back weeks on May 28th and June 4th, 2006. If you want more videos than these, I can dig them up and upload them, but these are a good start at least. Oh, and ignore the table felt that says "PokerStars". That was just the background in the hand history replayer. They were played on Full Tilt. Somewhere I have a video from my WCOOP HORSE final table too. That was my biggest tournament cash. I 4-bet river bluffed Daniel Negreanu in stud hi in that tournament when we were down to 2 or 3 tables :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:. I knew we were both on busted flush draws, but I couldn't beat his board, and he was doing the same thing I was lol, so we got into a raising war on 7th street and he laid it down to my 4-bet lol.




 
Awesome insight and information on the games Travis! I love stud and razz games, 7 stud 8 being my favorite of all poker games.
IMO NLHE is to poker what 9 ball is to pool.
It’s quick, it’s flashy and looks good but requires no where near the insight, focus and attention that is required in stud/razz or straight pool games.
I really hope one day I can sit in a stud 8 game with you. I’m always looking to improve my game. Thanks for the insight, great information here for all. :tup:
 
We play then in our mix game pretty regularly.
I host a rotation game once a month where we play 7stud 8 and 5 card stud Hi/Lo. By far the biggest pots of the night are always in either of these games.
Every now and then you can get into a $5/$10 or $10/$20 7stud game at Borgata on the weekend but it’s like sitting in a regular Atlantic City home game. Always the same faces.
Harrah’s AC has a $10/$20 7stud 8 on Mondays but very difficult to get a seat.
Again mostly familiar faces.
 
Old Stud Hi-Lo riddle:
Q: What is worse than a pair of Kings to start in Stud/8?
A: Three of them.
I’ll take rolled up kings every hand and make a nice living playing stud Hi/Lo in the process. :D IMO if your losing any more than occasionally with a rolled up starting hand, you are seriously missing some raises!
 
I hope I get around to watching these, will be great to pick up some 7 card tips and tricks. Thanks for sharing.
Ya, I believe most of them are still posted on pokerstrategy.com. I'm not sure what happened to my old videos that CardRunners owns the rights to though. I probably have close to 100 videos combined on a hard drive somewhere. But here are a few private links to a few of them that I put on YouTube. These are not publicly searchable because I posted them private as they are still hosted on pokerstrategy.com, but I own the rights to them, so I made a few of these available for friends that wanted to watch them.

These videos are from the first two HORSE tournaments I ever played, so I'm sure I made some stupid mistakes, but I ended up winning both of them somehow. They were the weekly Sunday Night HORSE events on Full Tilt Poker from back in 2006, which were $200 buy-ins that usually had about 100 player fields in them. There were a lot of really strong players playing these events back in the day. A lot of bracelet winners played these every week. I won it back to back weeks on May 28th and June 4th, 2006. If you want more videos than these, I can dig them up and upload them, but these are a good start at least. Oh, and ignore the table felt that says "PokerStars". That was just the background in the hand history replayer. They were played on Full Tilt. Somewhere I have a video from my WCOOP HORSE final table too. That was my biggest tournament cash. I 4-bet river bluffed Daniel Negreanu in stud hi in that tournament when we were down to 2 or 3 tables :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:. I knew we were both on busted flush draws, but I couldn't beat his board, and he was doing the same thing I was lol, so we got into a raising war on 7th street and he laid it down to my 4-bet lol.




 
What you said.

Very impressive dissertation my friend. Thanks for posting. I'll gladly admit I am not anywhere near as accomplished as you are.

I think a lot of your advice is more applicable in higher stakes settings. The complexities of stealing and hand-reading are are different in low stakes or low-buy-in tournaments where the blinds go up quickly and hands are routinely 4 or 5 handed after 3rd street.

I think it's a fair statement to say anyone new to stud is probably coming from a lot of holdem experience. There is of course a world of difference.

I think the biggest thing a new player should wrap their mind around is what types of hands will get you in trouble (both early and on later streets) that you can kind of get away with in Holdem. For example, in Holdem if you have a jack/queen/king/ace in your hand and another hits the board, you instantly know you have a pretty decent shot at winning the hand with top pair. However in stud, a one-pair hand on 5th or 6th st could be behind in a multitude of ways depending on the texture of your opponent(s)'s board, and if they're still calling, they surely have outs.
 
I should probably clarify that I mixed in some insights from cash game strategies and MTT strategies in my post. One important distinction is that you should be pressing small edges pretty hard in cash games, but not in tournaments. An example of this would be in Razz when you have a hand like (23)45T vs xx976 where you know they probably have a rough 9 made and you are currently "behind" but a slight favorite with a smooth draw (you'd be about 53% here to win). In a cash game, you can press this spot pretty hard, but in a tournament you're better off just playing it slower and reducing your variance & risk of ruin (busting out).

Another interesting and seemingly counterintuitive situation that comes up in Razz is that you should avoid putting in extra bets when you are slightly ahead on 4th & 5th street if you're up against a weak opponent who won't fold correctly on the next street if he catches bad and you catch good, but you would have to fold if the opposite occurs where you catch bad and he catches good in the next street. An example would be if you have a hand like (A7)38 and he has (xx)87 on 4th street in a hand that only had one raise on 3rd street. You would want to fold on 5th street if you caught a brick and he catches good, but you know he would call if you catch good and he catches a brick because you will be correctly forfeiting some of your equity here with a tight fold whereas he will not. So even though you might have around 55% equity on 4th street, you will actually lose a larger amount of any additional money that goes in on that street because you can't profitably continue through the next street if the cards go his way. Basically, never go to war when you are a slight favorite on any street when folding on the next street would be correct if things go south and you know that your opponent won't find a fold if they go south for him.
 
So what types of questions do you have?
Honestly, I know so little, I don’t even know what questions to ask. So...
  • Why am I not good?
  • Why am I so bad?
  • Why are you better than me?
  • How do I get good?
Some of the points made above are good jumping off spots for me. In Hold’em, it’s like you can give someone a starting hand chart, a basic understanding of pot odds, and an understanding of TAG, and they can appear competent. I’m just looking for that sort of starting point. I think it’s in the posts from you and @RainmanTrail, but I need to be able to change my paradigm before stud clicks. Still, it’s fun, and I’ll keep playing.
 
OK, here are a few general rules of thumb for stud that can help. But the biggest difference from Holdem is that everything in stud is situational with respect to the other upcards. For example, some hands in the "strong" category become "premium" hands when the dead cards look fairly safe, like QQx or ATT, and some "strong" hands can become suspect when the dead cards hurt you, like (KT)T with a dead K out and an A & Q left to act behind you.


Premium hands = AAx, KKx, AKQs, anything rolled up

Strong hands = QQx, JJTs, (TT)A, 789s, (4Q)As, JQK, (KJ)J

Situationally playable hands = any wired pair with an A or K in the door, 3 flush hands, 3 straight hands, medium pairs with a strong kicker and favorable dead cards.

If you have a hand like (38)8, just fold it unless you have decent potential to steal the antes. But you can limp in with a hand like (98s)8 if the dead cards don't look too dangerous. Also, don't chase flushes when there are multiple dead cards of your suit out.

Wired pairs > split pairs, and kickers are more important in stud than in Holdem because they dictate the strength of your 2 pair draws. So a hand like A99 is pretty good, whereas a hand like 799 often finds the muck.

With draw hands, you want to get in cheap unless you have some steal potential, and you want to let them go on 4th street if you don't improve.
 
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Honestly, I know so little, I don’t even know what questions to ask. So...
  • Why am I not good?
  • Why am I so bad?
  • Why are you better than me?
  • How do I get good?
Some of the points made above are good jumping off spots for me. In Hold’em, it’s like you can give someone a starting hand chart, a basic understanding of pot odds, and an understanding of TAG, and they can appear competent. I’m just looking for that sort of starting point. I think it’s in the posts from you and @RainmanTrail, but I need to be able to change my paradigm before stud clicks. Still, it’s fun, and I’ll keep playing.
Starting hands, paying attention to what’s showing and remembering what’s been folded are key basics in stud/razz.
Get these basics down, know your outs and the outs of other players based on what you see and remember (folded hands).
This is the $2-$10 spread limit 7stud 8 game I’m playing in at this moment.
3B42F99B-897F-4B7A-BCE1-98D549F8AA15.jpeg
 
If you think a starting hand might be kinda playable, it isn't.
If you see the card(s) you want staring at you from across the table, you are done.
In razz, you want to see cards that pair you face up on the table and the ones you want to be live.
 
Hero likely should fold more often. Hero likely should fold earlier than he does.

Limit poker is filled with seduction. After the first rounds of betting, Hero will be getting quite substantial odds to continue, making it difficult to fold (and perhaps improper to fold.) That means making early folds can help keep Hero out of trouble. Splashing around early in a tournament likely makes little difference since the pots rarely grow to significance. But that sloppy style of play leads to bad habits that will prove lethal when people start getting busted out.

Most of what Hero knows regarding full table play with "non-short" stacks becomes a handicap when things get short stacked and short handed. (remember this is limit poker, there isn't much of a thing called "deep stacked". 5 to 10 big bets is enough to play most hands to completion.) Better to focus on the basics for now and learn how to handle the final part of the final table later.

I offer a truly crude rule of thumb for starting hands. Use Rainman's advice first.

In razz I don't start a hand without three cards eight or less and if I do start an "eight" the other two cards need to be premium AND the eight has to be buried. You want your good cards face up so that the hand's best potential is better than the other hands.

in stud8 I want all three cards to make a possible low or combine someway to make a really powerful high hand or a mixed hand with both high and low potential.

Pay attention to free-roll situations. The player with a lock low is often freerolling to a high hand in stud8. Or in razz, you can tell by the up cards that the player with the weaker can't win.

Really, just fold a lot more often is as good an advice as I can think of for now -=- DrStrange
 
PokerGO subscription? I recommend watching some mixed cash games and the HORSE/ PPC WSOP events. Interesting to watch the strategies, and usually the commentators will explain some things.
 
Once you get a little bit of experience with starting hand strengths, and feel like you are focusing more on reading the other players, it is important to pay attention to which players play their draw hands fast, and which ones play them passively. The most dangerous opponents are the ones who mix up their play by sometimes playing them fast and sometimes playing them slow.
 
Once you get a little bit of experience with starting hand strengths, and feel like you are focusing more on reading the other players, it is important to pay attention to which players play their draw hands fast, and which ones play them passively. The most dangerous opponents are the ones who mix up their play by sometimes playing them fast and sometimes playing them slow.
That is some great information my friend.
Fortunately this game I’m in now is just totally passive and the calling stations can’t wait to get their money in the pot.
Softest seat in central Virginia! :D
FBE8C486-13B5-4D6F-912A-C0723744C8A3.jpeg
 

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