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How big is the chip home market? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter stafil
- Start date
I probably mentioned this before, but I play semi-regularly in a 5/5 mix game where there is often $6-$8K on the table by midnight. The host uses some old, ugly solid composite chips, which are covered in chip boogers from years of use.
I’ve tried to suggest that the host buy my nice set of 1,000 vintage H-mold solids in prime condition, and offered a really favorable price... He isn't willing to spring for it (though he is a consistent big winner in his own game) and the rest of the players aren't willing to chip in even $10/game for a months worth of games to buy it.
These are guys who regularly raise to $60 pre with garbage... Or 3-bet to $200 with marginal hands. Go figure.
However, I haven't completely given up hope. The host plays in my game, and has started to ask about my Paulson sets with envious tones. I might yet get him there.
In the meantime, I may bring my salad spinner and faux-TSP over to his place an hour before the next game to clean his filthy chips. It’s just too gross; they noticeably stick together now.
One approach a marketer might take is to offer sets near cost for a limited period of time, to spread chips around and give a broader segment of the public a taste of something better.
Make a deal with some known retailer or catalog company for a year. Seed the market by getting some better quality chips out there in the wild. I’m not thinking Wal-Mart or Dick’s Sporting Goods, but some place like Crate & Barrel or West Elm, where people furnishing new homes or apartments go for better quality stuff without breaking the bank.
The more people see better chips in other games and get used to them, the less they are going to tolerate dice chips, the bigger the market will get... and over time a smart company will figure out how to dominate all levels of the market profitably, including both the low-to-middling ranges and the stratospheric custom market.
What I’m really saying (even if you reject the above idea) is that of course, if a company or marketer accepts things as they are and does not try to create more demand/interest, then sure, of course nothing will change. I still think there is a big opportunity out there for some enterprising person or group.
Make a deal with some known retailer or catalog company for a year. Seed the market by getting some better quality chips out there in the wild. I’m not thinking Wal-Mart or Dick’s Sporting Goods, but some place like Crate & Barrel or West Elm, where people furnishing new homes or apartments go for better quality stuff without breaking the bank.
The more people see better chips in other games and get used to them, the less they are going to tolerate dice chips, the bigger the market will get... and over time a smart company will figure out how to dominate all levels of the market profitably, including both the low-to-middling ranges and the stratospheric custom market.
What I’m really saying (even if you reject the above idea) is that of course, if a company or marketer accepts things as they are and does not try to create more demand/interest, then sure, of course nothing will change. I still think there is a big opportunity out there for some enterprising person or group.
RainmanTrail
Royal Flush
I agree, most people wouldn't be very excited about more Paulson mold CDI or Pharaohs hitting the market. The reason GPI thinks our market is small is because they offered us chips that weren't very exciting. But if they were to offer new sets that were well designed similar to Le Cove or 20th Century, they'd probably sell through a million chips in the first month if they were less than $2 ea. I don't think they realize that. The home market is much bigger now than it was back when Le Coves were available.
Perthmike
Straight Flush
Well start preparing you presentation to GPI lol I believe in you
<insert random speculation here>
colter ripton
Full House
I think blanks would be the way to go.
If they offered all the fantasy lines as blanks.( no inlay and no hotstamp) If you could get any quantity of any chip you wanted it would be like Instant custom sets. I think it would surprise everyone how many they would sell. Sky would he the limit.
Of course this would be almost exclusively for chip collectors, but as it's been stated on here multiple times, we are the market for these chips.
If they offered all the fantasy lines as blanks.( no inlay and no hotstamp) If you could get any quantity of any chip you wanted it would be like Instant custom sets. I think it would surprise everyone how many they would sell. Sky would he the limit.
Of course this would be almost exclusively for chip collectors, but as it's been stated on here multiple times, we are the market for these chips.
colter ripton
Full House
Also they would have to have a recess so labels could be applied.
colter ripton
Full House
Yeah I know they havent before. But that would be sweet.
1A25R
Flush
Define home market please, PCF members is not really Home market but a niche.
I relive that the real home market still playing with dice and ultimate laser china poker chip, I also think that the "olden age" of poker (2005/06) is gone and therefore people are not looking to offer a poker set for Christmas of birthdays.
Every time that I browse a local "Craigslist" i only find plastic chips and some of them sold more expensive that RTC
I relive that the real home market still playing with dice and ultimate laser china poker chip, I also think that the "olden age" of poker (2005/06) is gone and therefore people are not looking to offer a poker set for Christmas of birthdays.
Every time that I browse a local "Craigslist" i only find plastic chips and some of them sold more expensive that RTC
Changster
Full House
I want some Paulson Premiums for the home market!
Johnblue
Flush
The home chip market for poker chips tends to fluctuate with the NASDAQ and has many variables, including but not limited to, current political trends, the price of tea in China, how many fingers am I holding up? and also Rachel’s hairstyle.. is it in or out?
If I were a betting man, I would go “all in” on poker chips.
If I were a betting man, I would go “all in” on poker chips.
ssanel54
Flush
See, I think thats where you are wrong. I think in this community, as soon as something is easily available through retail outlets, they become pedestrian. The LeCoves became desirable when they were no longer available. Pharaohs, WTHC, PCR were all awesome when they first hit the market - Paulson chips for the home market designed by Chippers. Same with the semi customs that Apache worked to make available. But after the initial splash, the community went back to coveting Casino paulsons. Why weren't there more TRK custom sets made? They weren't coveted the way they are today until they were no longer available.
At $1 a chip are people going to be cashing in their 401Ks to load up on chips, if they are a stock design? Will people be inclined to buy a 3000 chip set when they only need 800 for their game? I doubt it. I think for many, the main appeal of a $1 chip is that they can hopefully sell it for $2-3.
Pesto628
3 of a Kind
I think there is clearly some kind of a market just judging by this site. If Paulson started offering custom sets to the public they wouldn’t have to sell at $1/chip either, that kind of pricing can be reserved for the casinos. Based on what these sets have sold for on this site, they make prices $8/chip for a custom set targeted towards a higher end type of buyer.
saleen121212
Full House
Have you seen the Royals? Stock China clays and they are causing a massive buzz around here. You don't think stock THC chips for only 2x the price would result in a sell out?
RainmanTrail
Royal Flush
Good points. I think you've changed my mind
ssanel54
Flush
There is definitely a Niche market which is very small relative to the home poker market. GPI does offer customizable Elite Chips which no one here is excited for anymore. They also offered semi custom Paulson hotstamps for .99 which clearly did not provide enough revenue to register into their business strategy. Why do you think it would be different if they came back to the home market in 2019? there would be lots of excitement for a new offering, and then that excitement would dissipate because people would want something new.
Have not seen the Royals, and as you describe them them, I have no interest. THC mold is reserved for Casinos, so I dont think that will just become available for the home market, probably for many factors. But to my point, if the suits mold became available again, would you liquidate your current collection to buy a new stock design or would you be griping because you only want thc's?
MrCatPants
Full House
Many others have already stated the reasons GPI won't all of a sudden open to the home market. And to be frank, if it was profitable and the risk was controllable, they would have never left the home market in the first place.
If poker chips broke down/disintegrated in home games maybe, but these are generally "permanent" supply being added, and most people don't want multiple sets like many of us do.
Also, the people who host poker and would pay for a premium set is a very small market.
That, plus catering to the home market would require a whole different organization within the company to be created - an ecommerce website, customer service of a different variety (rather than sales reps), etc. All of a sudden they have an inventory to manage rather than just filling orders in bulk. And that's just assuming they carry only stock designs.
I think the only things we could ever hope for are:
1) That they find a process they are comfortable with to allow large group buys so they don't have to manage inventory or small contracts (let's be real here guys, 2k, 5k or 10k is a small contract for a business like this.)
2) They partner with a significant retail vendor to sell stock sets to the home market and that retailer manages all of the risk associated with inventory, and all GPI has to do is fill large orders.
If poker chips broke down/disintegrated in home games maybe, but these are generally "permanent" supply being added, and most people don't want multiple sets like many of us do.
Also, the people who host poker and would pay for a premium set is a very small market.
That, plus catering to the home market would require a whole different organization within the company to be created - an ecommerce website, customer service of a different variety (rather than sales reps), etc. All of a sudden they have an inventory to manage rather than just filling orders in bulk. And that's just assuming they carry only stock designs.
I think the only things we could ever hope for are:
1) That they find a process they are comfortable with to allow large group buys so they don't have to manage inventory or small contracts (let's be real here guys, 2k, 5k or 10k is a small contract for a business like this.)
2) They partner with a significant retail vendor to sell stock sets to the home market and that retailer manages all of the risk associated with inventory, and all GPI has to do is fill large orders.
I doubt that they will ever do #1 again. Paulson hasn't sold direct to the public since before the GPI merger, and GPI has never shown interest in dealing with individuals, regardless of order size. They are a manufacturer, and deal with large corporate clients and distributors, not people (not unlike many manufacturers of many products).
Regarding #2, that is *sort of* the sales model that was in place when Trademark (and later Apache) were wholesale buying and selling Paulson products on the PC and suits molds. 100K minimum for Trademark orders (Classics, Casino de Isthmus, Natational Poker Series, World Top Hat & Cane, Pharaoh's Club, and they probably brokered the Le Noirs, too), and I think Josh was required to buy at least 10,000 chips per color for his hot-stamped orders (Private Cardroom, Avalon Club, High Rollers, Grand Cardroom, and blanks for semi-customs, including the PCA Stars, Bahama chips, and PNY fracs). Afaik, neither Trademark nor Apache wanted the flow of large chip orders to stop -- that was a GPI business decision, and I don't think anything has changed since, that would warrant them to reconsider their position.
So #2 is possible..... although unlikely, imo.
Pesto628
3 of a Kind
In this fantasy scenario that I'm envisioning. I'm talking about them offering fully customizable chips, as if a casino was placing an order. Right now these types of chips are selling for around $6/chip+ on this forum. If GPI maintained that price point or made it even higher to squeeze whatever value they can out of the niche market they have, they would probably command high profit margins. I also think demand exists with the right marketing strategy. Someone mentioned that they do over $25m a year in US sales, that is not that much money. If they can find a way to add $1-2m a year that is a huge increase for them.
I've always had an interest in getting casino-level chips, but even with actively searching online it took a lot to stumble upon this forum. When you search casino quality chips you end up finding pages for all of the junk chips that we are familiar with. Again, I think the market exists, it is just untapped.
MrCatPants
Full House
The main reason they are at $6+ a chip because of the heavily constrained supply. And the market of people who would pay that is extremely limited...like the supercar market.
And these sales would be accompanied by a whole new set of employees and infrastructure being needed that could easily eat up (and then some) and increase in revenue.
Pesto628
3 of a Kind
I agree, but if you keep the price point the same, the supply will be just as exclusive. I am thinking of this in terms similar to something like the supercar market, which is prohibitive and uninteresting to many, but it is a market nonetheless.
ssanel54
Flush
I dont think you are considering GPIs business model as a whole, you're too focused on one product line.
Also, you know you can get fully customized casino quality chips from CPC at $2-4 right?
Pesto628
3 of a Kind
This whole thread is based on speculation and a non-existent scenario where GPI opens up sales to the public, so I don't feel the need to factor in their current business model. They can easily come up with workarounds regarding security etc. if they wanted to.
My point here is if people will pay upwards of $5/chip for somebody else's custom Paulsons, how much would they be willing to pay for their own?
I hear you on the CPC front, I think CPC and Paulson are very different products, but either way, CPC doesn't do much as far as marketing and advertising and I think that even they are leaving a market untapped.
Again, this is all speculation on my part and I don't have too much insight to the inner workings and logistics of what all of this would entail for a poker chip supplier. I just see the prices that people are willing to pay here and believe that there is profit that can be made with the right strategy.
So, the elephant in the room would seem to be... What if a group of PCF members (or PCF itself) formed a corporation for the purpose of buying in bulk from GPI for resale to the home market?
Per BGinGA’s point #2, it may be a pipe dream. If they won’t sell to Apache or other established retailers, why would they buy from some new corporation?
The answer, I’d assume, is that the annual orders would have to rival the volume of orders from multiple casinos. Unless they are (for some reason) truly hostile to the idea of home game chips. Or have some agreement with casino operators not to serve that market.
But everyone has their number. I doubt they’d turn down an order of a billion chips. Not that anyone is placing that kind of order, but you get the point.
MrCatPants
Full House
I had that thought too...but also assume if we are a known entity given the past buys that they likely wouldn't want to have business dealings with this community.
Do they really associate the boat chip buys with PCF (if that’s what you are referring to)?
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